Body Language & The Male Gaze - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

 
Verbatim
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THIS HURTS YOU

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Movement can be a powerful thing. Most of us who play games can appreciate the importance of a well-timed jump in a platformer, or a skillful dodge in a fighting game, but sometimes it’s the seemingly ordinary movements that actually tell us the most about a character. The way they do simple things like walk, or sit down. And like anything else about a character, movement can be used in ways that resist tired gender stereotypes, or in ways that reinforce them.

In Bungie’s hugely successful online shooter Destiny, players start by creating their own character, a Guardian who will fight to protect the last remnants of humanity. As with character creation tools in other games, this one lets you choose from different genders and races. In most ways, Destiny treats its playable female characters almost identically to how it treats its male characters; for instance, the armor you acquire when playing as a female character isn’t sexualized, but looks just as practical and stylish as the gear equipped by male characters.

However, there is one way in which the male and female characters are differentiated by gender, and it has to do with their movement. Watch how a male guardian sits down, taking a load off after a long, hard day fighting the forces of pure evil. It’s simple. It suggests confidence. When a female character sits down, however, it’s a completely different story. She sits like a delicate flower. This is supposed to be a hardened space warrior and yet she is sitting around like she’s Ariel from The Little Mermaid.

A character’s animation and movement is just as much a part of who they are as their appearance and their clothing. And like any other aspect of a character, game designers use movement to communicate information about them to the player. This isn’t inherently a bad thing; expressive character animations are just a way for the game to contribute to our understanding of who a character is and what defines them. How a character walks, jumps, even how they sit down can tell us a lot about them.

For instance, Ryu Hayabusa’s precise and graceful movement conveys that he is a highly trained ninja, while the way Nathan Drake scrambles and fumbles in dangerous situations is meant to suggest that he’s more of a relatable, ordinary guy who just keeps finding himself in extraordinary circumstances.

CLIP: Uncharted 2
“[Laughs] We were almost in that!”

By contrast, the way that women move in games isn’t just used to suggest their confidence or their skill or some other facet of their personality. It’s very often used, in conjunction with other aspects of their design, to make them exude sexuality for the entertainment of the presumed straight male player.

CLIP: Batman: Arkham CIty
“What the hell?

Catwoman from the Arkham series has a deeply exaggerated hip sway when she walks. In combination with her clothing and the game’s camera angles, all of this is meant to drive the player’s focus to her highly sexualized butt. In Resident Evil: Revelations, Jill Valentine somehow manages to wiggle her whole body while she runs. In Assassin’s Creed Syndicate, Evie Frye is a character who avoids falling into many of the sexualizing traps that some playable female characters do. But she still walks with an exaggerated hip sway.

In Saints Row: The Third, you can change your character’s gender at any time. If you go to the clinic and swap your gender from male to female, you also come away with a newly sexualized walking animation, even though you’re literally supposed to be the same character.

Male heroes are allowed to simply walk like normal human beings, in ways that are “average” or strong or graceful or goofy. Meanwhile, motion-captured animations for female characters often make them look as if they’re walking down a runway at a fashion show in stiletto heels, even when the characters are actually in combat situations. Watching these characters in-game movement animations, you’d think that the director of the motion capture session directed them to walk like a model instead of a hardened warrior or master thief or bioterrorism agent or crime boss or vampire or assassin.

Of course, in the real world, people do walk with a sway of the hips when wearing high heels. If we want to get really technical about it, this slight hip sway occurs in order to maintain balance. This in and of itself is not a problem, other than generally being deeply uncomfortable, but it raises an important question: why are these female characters in combat roles wearing high heels!? With all the fighting, running, and climbing these women have to do, dressing them in heels is clearly a decision rooted in sexualized aesthetic pleasure rather than believability.

In fact, animating so many female characters in games to fit into this very gendered, sexualizing walk pattern is an example of one of the ways the male gaze manifests in video games. The term “male gaze” was coined in 1975 by feminist film critic Laura Mulvey and refers to the tendency for the visual arts to assume, and be structured around, a presumed masculine viewer, or in this case, player.

The male gaze manifests when the camera takes on the perspective of a stereotypical heterosexual man. An indisputable example of this is when the camera lingers, caresses, or pans across a woman’s body– although it’s not always that obvious. In games, it can be as simple as the in-game camera resting so that a character’s butt or breasts or both are centerline, it can be cutscenes that rest on a woman’s butt, it can be clothing that they are wearing or the way they talk, or it can be as basic as the way a female character moves around the game world.

The male gaze reinforces the notion that the man looks, and the woman is looked at. Or as art critic John Berger explains it in the 1972 book Ways of Seeing, “men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at. This determines not only most relations between men and women but also the relation of women to themselves.”

To be clear, the male gaze is not a hard and fast rule; it’s a theoretical concept that is meant to help us understand the sometimes subtle and nuanced ways in which our culture influences media, and the way that media, in turn, can shape and reinforce existing gender dynamics in our culture. The male gaze is also not in any way limited to men or heterosexual people. Almost all of us internalize and sometimes identify with the male gaze to some extent.

Eradicating the male gaze is not as simple as introducing an inversed female gaze that sexualizes men, either. Not just because equal opportunity sexual objectification isn’t the answer, but also, because it isn’t actually equal. One reinforces preexisting oppressive ideas about women that are real and damaging to women in their everyday lives, the other does not reinforce anything.

Nor are the two interchangeable. For example, when the satirical website The Hawkeye Initiative reimagines male characters in sexualized poses that are common for female characters, it isn’t using the “female gaze.” This is just the male gaze, applied to men.

When male characters are depicted as shirtless or wearing little clothing–like the character sometimes dubbed “Hot Ryu” from Street Fighter V– their lack of clothing demonstrates their power and strength, rather than depicting them as erotic playthings or reducing them to sexualized body parts.

The same is true when it comes to movement. Male characters get to move in ways that emphasize all sorts of characteristics and personality traits, but there’s a whole world of untapped potential for representations of female characters who aren’t animated in ways that frame them as sex objects, but who get to just be as stealthy or strong, swift or imposing, clumsy or graceful.

The way Ellie moves in The Last of Us communicates a sense of tension and danger, demonstrating what it’s like when female characters are animated in ways that emphasize their personality and emotional state rather than serving to sexually objectify them.

The path towards equality and liberation does not lie in equally reducing men and women to objectified parts, but by treating people of all genders and with all types of bodies as full and complete human beings.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Promiscuity and sex are only bad in fiction when they detract from the characters or plot, not in and of themselves. But in video games, they almost always do. There are a literal handful of good female video game characters  (wouldn't consider a damsel in distress who has to constantly be saved by the male protagonist one, don't get why all the SJWs love Ellie), and sexualization is admittedly probably the reason why. The gender disparity is so wide in video games in particular because the medium as a whole mainly garners males, but it's still obviously a problem. I don't see how it can be actually fixed anytime soon, though. The industry doesn't seem to be listening to people like Anita.


eggsalad | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
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There are a literal handful of good female video game characters 
In triple A maybe.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
There are a literal handful of good female video game characters 
In triple A maybe.
That's what I'm talking about. I don't play indie games, and I'm pretty sure that's not what the whole Tropes vs Women In Video games videos are largely referring to


eggsalad | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
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While I agree that just trying to sexualize men isn't a good solution to encouraging character depth (I suppose it can be used as a tool to make people think about the subject though), I can't agree with the unsupported differentiation between strong-unrealistic bodied men and hot-unrealistically bodied women. It's skirting around the fact that big muscular and strong IS an attractive trait on men. Characters are pretty often made to be liked, and your character being attractive helps them to be liked, thinking that just because the market and producers are heterosexual men means that no male designs are made with the idea of making them attractive in mind is just choosing to fit your rhetoric.


Ásgeirr | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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The angel agreed to trade a set of white wings for the head of another demon. Overjoyed, the demon killed one of his own and plucked the head right off its still-warm body.

The angel then led the demon to heaven, where he underwent centuries of the cruelest tortures imaginable. Finally, the pain was so great that he lost consciousness - at which point his dark wings turned the promised shade of white.
So what im getting from this is: exaggeration = bad and that we should go by realism?


 
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
So what im getting from this is: exaggeration = bad and that we should go by realism?
What you should get from this is that she is not a gamer and everything she says about games shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone


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Stop bringing this fucking shit onto my board. Go join a fucking cult already.


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Officially Designated Titanfall thread

So about the Smart Pistol; Titanfall used to be so well balanced and I don't know what happened. If feels like the Smart Pistol has sniper range these days, People are shooting me off of the tops of the highest buildings in the game. Did it get a buff or something?


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While we're on the topic of Weapon Ballance the Hemlock BF-R has been pretty underpowered since day 1. It's not quite useless but compare it to the other rifles. Both the R101-C have far more controllable recoil which is a massive advantage with the way titanfall works and the G2A1 has a faster TTK too.  Overall all your doing with the BF-R is getting less payoff for more work, even with the Starburst attatchment.


 
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How about you don't derail the thread and take that stuff to your titanfall shilling thread.


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ayy lmao
why does this hurt me?


Deleted | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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How about you don't derail the thread and take that stuff to your titanfall shilling thread.

B-but...


 
Verbatim
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why does this hurt me?
SCARY FEMINAZIS TRYING TO RUIN MY VIDEO GAMES  :'( :'( :'(


 
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Rockets on my X
I'd just like to point out here that while yes, there's exaggerated movements in gaming, women's hips and walk are different from guys due to their hip structure, which is biologically different from guys, which she at least alludes to with talk of high heels.

Second, "When male characters are depicted as shirtless or wearing little clothing–like the character sometimes dubbed “Hot Ryu” from Street Fighter V– their lack of clothing demonstrates their power and strength, rather than depicting them as erotic playthings or reducing them to sexualized body parts."

Nope. I'm sorry. That's a bit of a crock right there. It really is. In most portrayals of guys, when the shirt comes off, it's an attractive feature, which therefore has roots in sexuality. Look at any magazine based around male sexuality and the first thing you'll see is shirtless guys. Some in more envoking poses, others in just standard poses.

You want me to prove that?

Put a topless picture of Chris Evans in here and wait for Icy to come in here and start fantasizing. And he's a dude. I didn't even mention what good looking shirtless guys do to the ladies.

Decent enough read though. Although I feel like she's poking holes and leaving no room for characters that actually are sexified. As in, that particular character's character is, well, a person who uses sexual emphasis. Take Catwoman for instance. Eye candy for guys, yes, but from an actual character standpoint, that's part of her personality. She uses that to her advantage when dealing with men, and she's got a long track record for stuff like that.

And, lastly, it was women who learned that sex and appeal made for good tricks. Willing prostitution wouldn't exist otherwise. Sex and appeal are just in some people's characters.

While I understand the whole big deal with portrayals, we also can't forget the other side at the same time, which is what she leaves out and seemingly condemns entirely.



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I love you, son.


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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
Not a lot of disagreement on it, although I don't Catwoman is a good example. That's part of the point of her, so the walk is completely in line with her character.

I do think a lot of these problems could be solved in situations like Destiny would be to offer a few movement options. "Tough", "Normal", "High Heels", etc. That way there's even freedom to have the hip sway as a male character if you really want it.


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hey
Not a lot of disagreement on it, although I don't Catwoman is a good example. That's part of the point of her, so the walk is completely in line with her character.

I do think a lot of these problems could be solved in situations like Destiny would be to offer a few movement options. "Tough", "Normal", "High Heels", etc. That way there's even freedom to have the hip sway as a male character if you really want it.
GTA V offers different walking animations for your character, for a good example


 
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While I agree that just trying to sexualize men isn't a good solution to encouraging character depth (I suppose it can be used as a tool to make people think about the subject though), I can't agree with the unsupported differentiation between strong-unrealistic bodied men and hot-unrealistically bodied women. It's skirting around the fact that big muscular and strong IS an attractive trait on men. Characters are pretty often made to be liked, and your character being attractive helps them to be liked, thinking that just because the market and producers are heterosexual men means that no male designs are made with the idea of making them attractive in mind is just choosing to fit your rhetoric.
Second, "When male characters are depicted as shirtless or wearing little clothing–like the character sometimes dubbed “Hot Ryu” from Street Fighter V– their lack of clothing demonstrates their power and strength, rather than depicting them as erotic playthings or reducing them to sexualized body parts."

Nope. I'm sorry. That's a bit of a crock right there. It really is. In most portrayals of guys, when the shirt comes off, it's an attractive feature, which therefore has roots in sexuality. Look at any magazine based around male sexuality and the first thing you'll see is shirtless guys. Some in more envoking poses, others in just standard poses.

[...]

Decent enough read though. Although I feel like she's poking holes and leaving no room for characters that actually are sexified. As in, that particular character's character is, well, a person who uses sexual emphasis. Take Catwoman for instance. Eye candy for guys, yes, but from an actual character standpoint, that's part of her personality. She uses that to her advantage when dealing with men, and she's got a long track record for stuff like that.
Not a lot of disagreement on it, although I don't Catwoman is a good example. That's part of the point of her, so the walk is completely in line with her character.

I do think a lot of these problems could be solved in situations like Destiny would be to offer a few movement options. "Tough", "Normal", "High Heels", etc. That way there's even freedom to have the hip sway as a male character if you really want it.
I'm completely with you guys on all of this. I'm certainly not about de-sexualizing characters if being sexy is part of what makes them unique, or whatever, and that's what ticks me off about Anita's videos the most. I don't feel as though she honestly believes characters like Catwoman shouldn't have any amount of sex appeal, or any sexual nuance about them whatsoever. I think she realizes that sexuality has its place in art, but she opts to obfuscate her true position with a cloud of extremity.

That is to say, she exaggerates her points a little bit as a way to get her point across, but this has a detrimental effect--because it ends up making her all the more disagreeable. I wish she would say something like, "Sexuality has its place in the industry, but I believe it could be toned down for the sake of having better/stronger/more flattering representations of women in media," but she never really talks like that.

She's uncompromising, which is respectable, but that's why I think she has a lot of trouble winning people over. I'd hate to see her kowtow to people for the sake of being inoffensive (ironically enough), but she has to realize that she's not going to win anybody over by using the kind of language she does.

It would also help if she wasn't Anita Sarkeesian, but uh, yeah.


 
Verbatim
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So what im getting from this is: exaggeration = bad and that we should go by realism?
Not necessarily. Anything in excess = bad (in this case, it's gratuitously lascivious body language). The solution is not necessarily more realism, but the toning down of what has been oversaturated.

Or, like others have added, giving the player the option to tone it down themselves.


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why does this hurt me?
SCARY FEMINAZIS TRYING TO RUIN MY VIDEO GAMES  :'( :'( :'(
You honestly just post this garbage to get a rise dont you?


 
Luciana
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I'll give this a watch/read and not come in with my usual hot headness when it involves her.

However I can say from reading the title alone, that tropes themselves are just bad in general since the characters who have them usually has little to no depth with them. I can think of what has happened to Fire Emblem in this regard, as opposed to the earlier games where it didn't rely on waifu mechanics.

Body language wise, women have obviously been sexualized (though for some reason a series like Final Fantasy likes to make the males just as sexualized, so hey) with looks alone, though I like to think there is an abundance of actual characters with character and depth to counteract this. Especially in the indie market.

Anyway, that post didn't mean much and it's probably not accurate. Just in the middle of a movie and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents before diving into it and reading the comments.

Edit: Though I'd like to add that tropes seem far worse in anime (and shows/movies in general), along with fanservice. Gotta appeal to the lowest common denominator. It's actually in a sad state of things if you watch a show and are SURPRISED there is no fanservice (I felt this way after watching one a few months back). Miyazaki was right. Anime is DEAD!

Just thought I'd add that random thought.
Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 11:04:51 PM by Luciana


 
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Okay watched it. My thoughts.

She does her research and brings up some good points. It's obvious that women have more of a tendency to be sexualized in video games because of the apparent demographic. However I think as of 2016, we can safely say it's not just nerds in their parents basements playing these anymore. Video games aren't a "nerdy" thing these days. People of all genders, and sexualities play them. However it always seems to me the industry fails to break some habits it has acquired over the years, and it's not just games. Movies and especially anime are subjected to this. Appealing to the lowest common denominator rather than actually fleshing out a character with more than just looks. It can be, and has been done before, but obviously it's not always the case.

What is important to realize though is that it's not the video game industry as a whole. There are many developers who don't fall into this trap. Like someone above pointed out, it's more apparent in triple A titles, and for obvious reasons. Those are the money makes of the industry. That being said, I have a few things I want to nitpick at.

When she pointed out Assassins Creed Syndicate, I can't help but be reminded of her review of it beforehand and how it did such an incredible job at avoiding these stereotypes. How Evie was a strong, independent black woman who didn't do the things we're accustomed to seeing female characters do. However she critiques it here, if only for the walking animation. I get that complaint, as some of them do look like they walk like they're doing a photoshoot. However she says females can somehow walk like this, as it is to maintain balance (and she's right) and the hipbones in general.

However I feel she discards that when she brings up walks such as Evie. She has the sway, but if you ask me it is not exaggerated at all. Of course she's not going to walk like a man, she's a woman. I'd like to reference this video.

YouTube

It's how a female walks. Her hips sway because females have a different bone structure than men do. It's not sexualizing it in that case, it's being natural. However the examples such as Bayonetta are correct. And when she brought up Elie, while her example was correct, I'd also like to remind people that she's like 12. They wouldn't dare sexualize someone of that age, so I'd like a better example from her that does it "correct".

Also my last thing. I mentioned this in my post above with Final Fantasy.

Quote
When male characters are depicted as shirtless or wearing little clothing–like the character sometimes dubbed “Hot Ryu” from Street Fighter V– their lack of clothing demonstrates their power and strength, rather than depicting them as erotic playthings or reducing them to sexualized body parts.
Spoiler



I'd argue men can be just as fan servicy as females can, though obviously not as frequent. I'd also like to add to what she says here. And as mentioned above, it is an attractive feature in men. A fit man with muscles is seen as the "best thing" in our culture as women in a bikini who are as skinny as a twig. Both are unrealistic and not the most common thing among men.

Quote
One reinforces preexisting oppressive ideas about women that are real and damaging to women in their everyday lives, the other does not reinforce anything.
Now this is one thing I really just outright disagreed with rather than just nitpicked at. I feel as though this is an open and shut case in her regard and I entirely oppose this. I hate to bring it up again, but Emma Watson said at her UN speech (or wherever she was), that both sexes, male and female, are horribly oppressed by such stereotypes.

Women for what was covered in this review, but males as well for almost the same examples she brought up, but failed to talk about. Males are supposed to be strong! Tough! Do everything and take care of the woman, don't show emotions, don't cry! It's because of those pictures she showed of buff men who are shirtless, that I felt she missed that point entirely.

Men do suffer from stereotypes just as much as women do. Though it may not be sexualized per say, it still is put to the forefront when I saw these pictures. I can only think of a few action games where the male character isn't some muscle head or someone lithe but super ripped. The normal guy is nothing like these characters, and is just as exaggerated as the female in their own regard.

Men don't HAVE to be muscle heads, emotionally distant, always cool with the ladies. Men CAN cry, they can be emotional, they can be physically weak. I'd argue a lot of pressure is on men in our society just as much as a woman, though of course in different ways as I explained. That's not to discount what the women in video games, or in general go through, but to ignore one side, to me, is just very silly and an injustice.

Because of this, I think she should follow her own advice and listen when she says:
Quote
The path towards equality and liberation does not lie in equally reducing men and women to objectified parts, but by treating people of all genders and with all types of bodies as full and complete human beings.
Those are just my thoughts. Let me conclude by saying that I agree with a lot of what she said, and she clearly has a point to much of her examples. She does her research for the point she's trying to push, and says it in a clear and elegant tone, not straying from the topic she's presenting.

However I do disagree with her on some points, and feel she uses one example, without abiding to the same examples or critical thinking process when talking about the male counterparts. I understand that's not the point of the video. After all, it's not "Tropes vs Men in Video Games".

Thanks for reading!


P.S. Quiet sucks. Nothing but a fanservice slut who has no character. The End in Metal Gear Solid 3, who had a total of about 15 minutes of cutscenes, had more depth to him than her if you ask me. Shame on you Kojima for your poor excuse "you'll understand why" when talking about her lack of clothes, even though the character I just mentioned has the same EXACT condition. Also, your game failed in many regards. At this point I wonder if he was trolling or just saying screw it, because he's shown that even a sexualized character like Eva can have character to her and actually use that whole plot point for a reason. But I digress...
Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 12:19:19 AM by Luciana


 
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So what im getting from this is: exaggeration = bad and that we should go by realism?
What you should get from this is that she is not a gamer and everything she says about games shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone
I dunno. I disagree with a lot of stuff she says, but to completely disregard someone's opinion just because she's not as into something as you, seems silly to me. She's clearly played some games such as Assassins Creed and various others, and while she may not be a hardcore gamer, I don't think that suddenly means her opinions are invalid.


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One reinforces preexisting oppressive ideas about women that are real and damaging to women in their everyday lives, the other does not reinforce anything.
Now this is one thing I really just outright disagreed with rather than just nitpicked at. I feel as though this is an open and shut case in her regard and I entirely oppose this. I hate to bring it up again, but Emma Watson said at her UN speech (or wherever she was), that both sexes, male and female, are horribly oppressed by such stereotypes.

Women for what was covered in this review, but males as well for almost the same examples she brought up, but failed to talk about. Males are supposed to be strong! Tough! Do everything and take care of the woman, don't show emotions, don't cry! It's because of those pictures she showed of buff men who are shirtless, that I felt she missed that point entirely.
I think Anita's failure to address these things really illustrates a core problem to both her and many people have, they think that the male gender role is the ideal. A character should always take charge and have strong agency etc. etc., because having a character be vulnerable is succumbing to misogynistic influence. I mean why would anyone ever need to talk about the problem with men being forced into a gender role if the male gender role is thought to be so liberating and fulfilling? When you approach the topic with that mindset it's easy to just look at female characters and say "they should be more like these male characters you've made!", when really male characters suffer from tropes and pitfalls themselves, they're just considered good tropes because...uh...


Also this is a low blow but to be honest I think Anita's reading level isn't high enough to be an authority on narrative and character quality. I say this because she's always had the most juvenile of writing styles for someone so acclaimed as an author and her research seems to stretch about as far as big title releases.
Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 02:53:10 AM by eggsalad


 
Luciana
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I agree with what you said, though I don't think I've ever heard it put that way. In that regard, I like that perspective very much so. It seems striving to be the male type we see in games is some self fulfilling prophecy, when really through a different lens, it suffers just as much as the male. At the core of it, it's our culture. You mentioned it in an earlier post, but magazines and other various forms of media have men out to be the sexy ripped musclebound guys we all know and love. It's sadly not a common thing, much like any woman you see on a magazine isn't the normal thing.

Also

Quote
Also this is a low blow but to be honest I think Anita's reading level isn't high enough to be an authority on narrative and character quality.

for someone so talked acclaimed as an author and her research seems to stretch about as far as big title releases.
I hate bringing up a show as a quote, but I found this fitting.



I mention that because she proclaimed herself to be some leading voice of feminism or something before. I forget where, but I know I read or heard it.
Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 01:37:29 AM by Luciana


 
 
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Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 04:20:55 AM by Flee


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Decent video. Not sure the Destiny example holds up, since men and women do tend to sit differently, and I wonder if she'd make the same criticism over a pose where the woman sits with her legs spread apart like the male character does. Also, Catwoman is a sexual character; part of her well-established persona is being a seductress -- though that tends to apply to quite a few women in comics.
Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 07:38:57 PM by HurtfulTurkey


 
Luciana
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Decent video. Not sure the Destiny example holds up, since men and women do tend to sit differently, and I wonder if she'd make the same criticism over a pose where the women sits with her legs spread apart like the male character does.
I was going to say the SAME THING but forgot to.


 
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I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse which is I never seem to care about these things.

Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 10:43:06 PM by Saint Endo