Anita Sarkeesian - "Women as Reward - Special DLC Mini-Episode"

Mordo · September 14, 2015, 01:31:33 PM

In all seriousness, if you follow his 'argument' to its logical conclusion you'll eventually discover that all this bemoaning essentially boils down to is his disdain for sex.

I don't think he really cares about the effects sexualization has on women, if there are any. It just stems from his insipid philosophy.

Girl of Mystery · September 14, 2015, 01:32:17 PM

Quote from: Connoisseur of Dicks on September 14, 2015, 01:30:08 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 01:27:29 PM
Quote from: Connoisseur of Dicks on September 14, 2015, 01:21:31 PM
Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 01:19:24 PM
Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 01:05:36 PM
Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 12:57:19 PM
So, how is this a problem? Or what I really mean is, why do you consider it a problem?

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I mean, if you're gonna take that side, fine—I don't really have much to say to that.
I want to know why he thinks it's a problem.

I don't see a problem with sexualizing women - to a certain extent. And surprisingly enough women enjoy that type of attention.

Women are women and men are men. Women have nice bodies, there's nothing wrong with showing it. This isn't Saudi Arabia.

Personally, I just don't want sex in my face all the time when I play games. That's all. It gets obnoxious at times. It shouldn't be removed from games entirely, though.

Stop playing obscure Japanese games then, because otherwise it isn't in your face that often

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:11:49 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 01:31:33 PM

In all seriousness, if you follow his 'argument' to its logical conclusion you'll eventually discover that all this bemoaning essentially boils down to is his disdain for sex.

As I have stated numerous times, I have no disdain for sex. I have disdain for sexuality. And so should everybody else.

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:12:55 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 12:57:19 PM

So, how is this a problem? Or what I really mean is, why do you consider it a problem?

Why is degrading women a problem? Figure it out.

Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 01:27:29 PM

I want to know why he thinks it's a problem.

I don't see a problem with sexualizing women - to a certain extent. And surprisingly enough women enjoy that type of attention.

Women are women and men are men. Women have nice bodies, there's nothing wrong with showing it. This isn't Saudi Arabia.

Just earlier in the other thread, you were deriding Metal Gear for being "pervy".

I'll start talking with you once you've actually formed a consistent opinion on the matter.

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:14:21 PM

Quote from: Citrus Snake on September 14, 2015, 12:43:11 PM

Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 14, 2015, 12:10:00 PM
Quote from: Citrus Snake on September 14, 2015, 12:06:35 PM
There isn't even anything wrong with sex selling, anyway.
It also doesn't sell as much as she likes to think.
She addresses this.
i don't want to scale the wall of china
where about in the transcript ?

Protip: Read threads before you post in them.

I highlighted the part where she addresses the "sex sells" argument.

Quote from: Citrus Snake on September 14, 2015, 01:32:17 PM

Stop playing obscure Japanese games then, because otherwise it isn't in your face that often

It shouldn't be "in your face" ever.

Mordo · September 14, 2015, 03:31:06 PM

Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 14, 2015, 03:11:49 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 01:31:33 PM
In all seriousness, if you follow his 'argument' to its logical conclusion you'll eventually discover that all this bemoaning essentially boils down to is his disdain for sex.
As I have stated numerous times, I have no disdain for sex. I have disdain for sexuality. And so should everybody else.

"I have no displeasure for the thing I literally just said I had displeasure for"

challengerX · September 14, 2015, 03:32:33 PM

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Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:34:15 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 03:31:06 PM

"I have no displeasure for the thing I literally just said I had displeasure for"

Sex and sexuality are two different things.

One is an action. The other is a proclivity towards such an action.

A malignant proclivity that is responsible for, well, everything wrong with society. Because it created society.

There is no reason anyone shouldn't hate it, unless you're not an anti-natalist.
But if you're not an anti-natalist, you're an idiot, so...

challengerX · September 14, 2015, 03:35:45 PM

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Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:36:18 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 03:32:33 PM

It's not degrading for them to be wearing little clothing or revealing.

You're right.

It's degrading for them to be portrayed as sex objects. You can wear little clothing without being a sex object.
I haven't seen it very often, but it happens.

It hasn't happened in any of Anita's examples.

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Because it's crossing the limit of being acceptable. It's pervy.

Like I said, "to a certain extent".

At what point does it cross the line for you, then?

Mordo · September 14, 2015, 03:38:57 PM

Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 14, 2015, 03:34:15 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 03:31:06 PM
"I have no displeasure for the thing I literally just said I had displeasure for"
Sex and sexuality are two different things.

One is an action. The other is a proclivity towards such an action.

A malignant proclivity that is responsible for, well, everything wrong with society. Because it created society.

There is no reason anyone shouldn't hate it, unless you're not an anti-natalist.
But if you're not an anti-natalist, you're an idiot, so...

I'd really love for you to posit a logical argument without injecting your irrelevant philosophy into discussions that have literally nothing to do with it.

challengerX · September 14, 2015, 03:39:01 PM

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Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:43:01 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 03:38:57 PM

I'd really love for you to posit a logical argument without injecting your irrelevant philosophy into discussions that have literally nothing to do with it.

You brought it up first. "He's just saying this because of his insipid philosophy."

I'd really love for you to explain why I shouldn't hate sexuality and why everyone else shouldn't hate sexuality.

Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 03:39:01 PM

I don't see how it's degrading for a woman to be sexual. Should she hide under blankets instead?

As if that's the only alternative?

It's degrading because they're being reduced to objects. To be displayed and viewed for sexual pleasure.

How about portraying women in a respectable manner that doesn't focus entirely on their body proportions?

challengerX · September 14, 2015, 03:45:20 PM

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Mordo · September 14, 2015, 03:46:45 PM

Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 14, 2015, 03:43:01 PM

You brought it up first. "He's just saying this because of his insipid philosophy."

I brought it up because it's always the one thing you resort to in a debate, especially regarding the topic at hand.

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I'd really love for you to explain why I shouldn't hate sexuality and why everyone else shouldn't hate sexuality.

If I go down this route all you ever end up doing is, as was aforementioned, employing the anti natalist card that has nothing to do with a discussion centred around sexism in videogames.

So yeah, it would certainly help if you stop using it as a defense mechanism.

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:48:32 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 03:45:20 PM

You have to prove that since we're the normal ones.

I already have. Everyone should know exactly why I hate sexuality and why I think everyone else should hate sexuality. Now it's your turn to tell me why I'm wrong. No one has done it yet. Especially not Mordo.

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How about portraying them as people and allowing their sexuality to be a factor as well because it IS a factor.

So you agree with me? I'd like for women to be portrayed as people, too! Not objects. Which is what we're doing.

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:50:44 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 03:46:45 PM

I brought it up because it's always the one thing you resort to in a debate, especially regarding the topic at hand.

I don't "resort" to it. It's the root of my entire life philosophy.

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If I go down this route all you ever end up doing is, as was aforementioned, employing the anti natalist card that has nothing to do with a discussion centred around sexism in videogames.

So yeah, it would certainly help if you stop using it as a defense mechanism.

So you can't answer the question. Okay.

That's the question that needs answering. Show me why I should embrace sexuality, and I'll cease to be against the exploitation of female characters in video games. Male characters, too. Because then I'll know that there's nothing wrong with sexuality.

But no, for the time being, yeah, everything is wrong the sexuality.

challengerX · September 14, 2015, 03:51:53 PM

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Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 03:55:30 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 14, 2015, 03:51:53 PM

You've explained why you think a certain way, but there's no logic to it. It's just how you feel.

And I've been asking—why don't you feel the same way? There's no other way I can do this other than by asking you, and picking apart your answers.

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That isn't really happening though. It's rare. Take a look at most women characters.

Most women in the most popular of video games are sexualized in some manner. To the point where it's unnecessary.

Doctor Doom · September 14, 2015, 03:58:09 PM

I'm generally fine with sexual characters as long as they have characterization beyond being sexy. Like The Boss, or Cortana. They're genuinely compelling and also happen to be physically (or digitally) attractive, but their sexuality is never the focal point.

...And then you have characters like Quiet, who are there just for the sake of eye candy. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with her if she had an actual story arc and a personality of her own, but she's really just there to look good and shoot stuff. That's distasteful.

Mordo · September 14, 2015, 03:58:31 PM

Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 14, 2015, 03:50:44 PM

I don't "resort" to it. It's the root of my entire life philosophy.

So yeah, you resort to it then.

Sometimes it helps to dissociate or examine your most closely held beliefs from a different perspective for the sake of discussion. Not that I'd ever expect you to do that though, but everyone that's normal eventually goes through an intellectual kick up the arse at some point in their lives, so to speak.

I really hope you go through that transitional period someday, then we can actually have a rational discussion were you don't end up acting like a tempestuous child, and I don't end up intellectually drained from the vapid points you used to make.

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So you can't answer the question. Okay.

I've answered this question innumerable times in innumerable discussions with you. You just refuse to listen to me.

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That's the question that needs answering.

Already been answered. All that needs to be done is for you to think rationally.

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 04:00:21 PM

Quote from: Liquid Lime on September 14, 2015, 03:58:09 PM

I'm generally fine with sexual characters as long as they have characterization beyond being sexy. Like The Boss, or Cortana. They're genuinely compelling and also happen to be physically (or digitally) attractive, but their sexuality is never the focal point.

They don't "happen" to be attractive—they were deliberately designed to be attractive. Let's not act like it was just happenstance, like birth.

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...And then you have characters like Quiet, who are there just for the sake of eye candy. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with her if she had an actual story arc and a personality of her own, but she's really just there to look good and shoot stuff. That's distasteful.

Well, I'm glad that we can agree there.

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 04:02:47 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 03:58:31 PM

everyone that's normal eventually goes through an intellectual kick up the arse at some point in their lives, so to speak.

Indeed. Maybe you'll get there some day.

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I've answered this question innumerable times in innumerable discussions with you. You just refuse to listen to me.

"One" is far from innumerable. You're gonna have to give me a refresher if you want this discussion to go anywhere.

Elai · September 14, 2015, 04:05:17 PM

Quote from: Liquid Lime on September 14, 2015, 03:58:09 PM

I'm generally fine with sexual characters as long as they have characterization beyond being sexy.

Exactly.

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Like The Boss, or Cortana.

Ehh... Cortana is a bit of a stretch, tbh. Yeah she's a great character but she's literally naked for no reason.

The Boss is the perfect representation of what female characters should strive to be like... until the final battle with her, where she needlessly unzips her uniform to show cleavage.

She's still my favourite fem character ever but that part served no purpose other than fan service, which I hope you agree with.

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...And then you have characters like Quiet, who are there just for the sake of eye candy. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with her if she had an actual story arc and a personality of her own, but she's really just there to look good and shoot stuff. That's distasteful.

It's such a shame, too, because her story is... at least somewhat interesting. If she was wearing her XOF uniform or even some sort of solar suit (IDK, they could get creative), she'd be a better character than she is now.

Korra · September 14, 2015, 04:06:51 PM

Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 14, 2015, 04:02:47 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
everyone that's normal eventually goes through an intellectual kick up the arse at some point in their lives, so to speak.
Indeed. Maybe you'll get there some day.
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I've answered this question innumerable times in innumerable discussions with you. You just refuse to listen to me.
"One" is far from innumerable. You're gonna have to give me a refresher if you want this discussion to go anywhere.

Women can be pretty and have personalities at the same time. Just like men. Like well, the Rock is woah but he has an electrifying personality.

Its just when characters, like Quiet, are just eye-candy...there lies the problem.

Deleted · September 14, 2015, 04:07:49 PM

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 04:09:42 PM

Quote from: underground teen memes on September 14, 2015, 03:58:31 PM

Sometimes it helps to dissociate or examine your most closely held beliefs from a different perspective for the sake of discussion.

But okay, I'll bite. Allow me to look at it from the perspective of someone who doesn't give a fuck about how women are portrayed in media. So, an idiot.

So now I'm stupid, I'm unable to look at things from a critical, feminist point of view, and I'm blind to the fact that women are being degraded and objectified day-in, day-out by the entertainment industry. You could argue that "ignorance is bliss", but ignorance is ignorance. I'd rather not be ignorant. I'd rather stand up and say, "Okay, this is kind of perverted. I wouldn't want to be a woman knowing that my gender is being exploited so often." That will always seem like the mroe rational perspective.

So that was useless.

Verbatim · September 14, 2015, 04:11:46 PM

Quote from: Mikasa Ackerman on September 14, 2015, 04:06:51 PM

Women can be pretty and have personalities at the same time. Just like men. Like well, the Rock is woah but he has an electrifying personality.

Its just when characters, like Quiet, are just eye-candy...there lies the problem.

Exactly. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to agree with.

Doctor Doom · September 14, 2015, 04:13:12 PM

Quote from: Punished Snake on September 14, 2015, 04:05:17 PM

The Boss is the perfect representation of what female characters should strive to be like... until the final battle with her, where she needlessly unzips her uniform to show cleavage.

By that point in the game the player should be thinking 'oh, okay, you have breasts' instead of 'oh boy, boobs!' It's actually a clever little point with Eva and the R2 cam. When she first appears, pressing R2 shows a close-up of her tits. By the end of the game, Snake is looking her in the eye. She becomes more than just a set of tits to gawk at. And The Boss was never just a set of tits to gawk at, so the player doesn't (or shouldn't) really notice when she shows her scar to Snake.

Elai · September 14, 2015, 04:14:44 PM

Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 14, 2015, 04:11:46 PM

Quote from: Mikasa Ackerman on September 14, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
Women can be pretty and have personalities at the same time. Just like men. Like well, the Rock is woah but he has an electrifying personality.

Its just when characters, like Quiet, are just eye-candy...there lies the problem.
Exactly. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to agree with.

well tbh I don't think anyone really disagrees with Korra's statement