"In Defense of MGS4."

Elai · August 06, 2017, 07:20:30 PM

everything after act 2 is just not fun except rex vs ray and if you cut out the cutscenes there's probably like a good 2-3 hours of gameplay from acts 3-5

but about 7 hours of cutscenes

Elai · August 06, 2017, 07:29:27 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on August 06, 2017, 07:17:51 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 07:14:24 PM
how much time do you have
A technically indefinite amount, as you could just make an arbitrarily long post, and I could just read it at any point.

basically it's not much of a game and if you take out the cutscenes (which contain a garbage story to begin with) there's about 3 hours of boring gameplay to take up the last 3 fifths of the game. acts 1 and 2 demonstrate metal gear gameplay at its theoretical limit, everything after that bar 2 boss fights is bleh.

ive tried replaying this game and for the sake of my own time i skipped the cutscenes, and about an hour after act 2 i was in act 5.

honestly i prefer mgsv's "problems" because at least what little story is there isn't insultingly bad and there's a fantastic execution of a game to enjoy. mgs4 has a bad story and a good foundation of gameplay but the narrative really restricts what it could do after act 2.

there are moments that are just brilliant in mgs4's last half but i don't really feel like praising them because of the context of their appearance. i also don't like fanservice and there's a lot here, no amount of "bravado" is going to make me suddenly enjoy selling out.

Luciana · August 06, 2017, 08:05:00 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on August 06, 2017, 07:10:58 PM

The hatred around this game has always seemed like completely irrational hysteria to me.

As for MGSV, I can actually understand from a story standpoint why the game gets shit on. MGS4? No.

They're both very valid, but I think MGS V just fails to be a Metal Gear Solid game entirely. It just... ruins so much of everything every other game has built up. It's only saving grace is the gameplay, but even then you can argue you're just doing so much pointless repetitive things, what with the same rescue missions coming out of the same helicopter with the same animations and about 20 seconds of doing nothing. That's not even taking into account the vast emptiness of getting from one point to another, or that there are only two maps in the entire game.

Luciana · August 06, 2017, 08:05:52 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 07:14:05 PM

Quote from: Luciana on August 06, 2017, 07:07:26 PM
Quote from: Snake on August 04, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
Quote from: Pepsi on August 04, 2017, 01:26:47 PM
highly polished game

Yeah but so is every Metal Gear directed by Kojima.
MGS V is not that polished in terms of story and gameplay decisions :^)

"gameplay decisions"

mgsv is an extremely polished game

Refer to my last post. When you're on your feet it can be, but the decisions to getting there? No. It's horrible. It encompasses everything wrong with open world games if you ask me, in fact even worse so.

Luciana · August 06, 2017, 08:08:04 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 07:29:27 PM

honestly i prefer mgsv's "problems" because at least what little story is there isn't insultingly bad and there's a fantastic execution of a game to enjoy.

Yeah those boss fights are amazing, and that "story" really is in depth. You know, the ones where you're listening to cassette tapes that'll get drowned out by in game dialogue, so your best bet is to just stand in one spot staring at the screen being brain dead, or wandering around in the open not advancing the story so you can hear it all.

Metal Gears main appeal has always been the characters and story it's had, along with its fantastical boss fights, and MGS V failed on every single one of those. It even found a way to make someone as interesting as Big Boss, boring as shit.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 08:58:56 PM

Quote from: Luciana on August 06, 2017, 08:08:04 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 07:29:27 PM
honestly i prefer mgsv's "problems" because at least what little story is there isn't insultingly bad and there's a fantastic execution of a game to enjoy.
Yeah those boss fights are amazing, and that "story" really is in depth.

what the hell

why do you bring up story when i'm talking about gameplay

the story isn't good -- but it's not insulting, and it's not bad at the conceptual level like MGS4 is.

who gives a rats ass if the boss fights aren't good. you don't need boss fights to be a good game.

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You know, the ones where you're listening to cassette tapes that'll get drowned out by in game dialogue, so your best bet is to just stand in one spot staring at the screen being brain dead, or wandering around in the open not advancing the story so you can hear it all.

that doesn't matter. that's the story's execution. what actually happens through those cassette tapes is pretty cool.

in comparison, what happens in MGS4's cutscenes is 90% of the time completely fucking retarded.

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Metal Gears main appeal has always been the characters and story it's had, along with its fantastical boss fights, and MGS V failed on every single one of those. It even found a way to make someone as interesting as Big Boss, boring as shit.

again, who cares

MGSV has different appeals, sorry it doesn't cater to your specific requirements. it still has fantastic and polished gameplay, which is my contention.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 08:59:24 PM

Quote from: Luciana on August 06, 2017, 08:05:52 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 07:14:05 PM
Quote from: Luciana on August 06, 2017, 07:07:26 PM
Quote from: Snake on August 04, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
Quote from: Pepsi on August 04, 2017, 01:26:47 PM
highly polished game

Yeah but so is every Metal Gear directed by Kojima.
MGS V is not that polished in terms of story and gameplay decisions :^)

"gameplay decisions"

mgsv is an extremely polished game
Refer to my last post. When you're on your feet it can be, but the decisions to getting there? No. It's horrible. It encompasses everything wrong with open world games if you ask me, in fact even worse so.

again, this has nothing to do with polish.

MGSV is an extremely polished game.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 09:04:54 PM

MGS4's problems are worse than MGSV because even if you enjoy MGS4's story, you'll only really get to explore it once

whereas with MGSV, there's 50+ hours of gameplay there for you to enjoy. "repetitive tasks" "empty open world" these make no sense. the objectives are similar but there are variables that change up every mission, and the game reacts to your playstyle to ensure a different method every time. i wouldn't even call MGSV an open world, it's essentially just a bunch of little mission areas connected. i prefer it to any alternative i could think of. the time between missions and the helicopter rides are a bit much but it seems like such a minor issue because they only really become grating after the 60 hour mark or so, at which point you're basically going for that 100% anyway which is completely optional.

sick and tired of people tryna say MGSV doesn't even have good gameplay for the sake of reactionary bullshit. it has great gameplay, with flaws.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 09:12:23 PM

call that shit a pop off god damn

Luciana · August 06, 2017, 09:34:00 PM

I don't have much time to reply, so here I'll just link this instead

YouTube

And sorry, I thought the cassette tapes were shit, and the boss fights were atrocious. Boss fights in MGS games are always a big part of it. It was awful in this game. I don't think it's fair that what you consider bad vs good gameplay decisions and design seems to be arbitrary. It's part of the whole package.

Spartan · August 06, 2017, 09:42:03 PM

While we have a MGS thread, this is an incredible waste

YouTube

Elai · August 06, 2017, 09:42:15 PM

Quote from: Luciana on August 06, 2017, 09:34:00 PM

I don't have much time to reply, so here I'll just link this instead

YouTube

i've already seen it

do your own arguing

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And sorry, I thought the cassette tapes were shit, and the boss fights were atrocious.

okay, i agree

that still doesn't make the story bad, it makes its execution bad

as for boss fights, they aren't really here, and that's fine. if you think a lack of boss fights somehow makes a game bad, you need to kill yourself.

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Boss fights in MGS games are always a big part of it. It was awful in this game. I don't think it's fair that what you consider bad vs good gameplay decisions and design seems to be arbitrary. It's part of the whole package.

boss fights don't matter

helicopter times are annoying, but they don't somehow detract from the game when you're actually in control

i'm judging a game for the quality of its content, not crossing off a grocery list of what arbitrarily constitutes "metal gear" to me and then deciding to not even buy anything because this supermarket doesn't have half the items i want. it's the exact opposite of arbitrary.

you sound like those people that try to argue halo 4's soundtrack is bad because it doesn't fit their subjective definition of halo's """sound"""

Elai · August 06, 2017, 09:44:30 PM

Story:

MGS4 is both bad in concept and in execution
MGSV is only bad in execution

Gameplay:

MGS4 is only good in concept
MGSV is good in both concept and execution

We shall call this theory "Prehistoric's Symmetry"

or would it be "asymmetry"?

Elai · August 06, 2017, 09:48:08 PM

also what the fuck sahelanthropus was pretty fun

Elai · August 06, 2017, 09:50:01 PM

Quote from: Spartan on August 06, 2017, 09:42:03 PM

While we have a MGS thread, this is an incredible waste

YouTube

ehh

it feels lifeless without facial cap

Dietrich Six · August 06, 2017, 10:32:57 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 02, 2017, 07:01:10 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 02, 2017, 06:42:18 PM
Did you just throw Johnny in there. The guy who basically just shit the whole series?

Yeah, because we're supposed to start taking him seriously all of a sudden? It's insulting that they expect that.

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And the dialogue has always been anime-y. Raiden turning into a cyborg was weird but but not out of character, plus it was fucking sick.

1. The dialogue was never this bad.
2. Him being in the game at all is my problem. It negates the end of MGS2.

MGS4 has a lot of strengths but you aren't bringing up any of them.

Lol Johnny was never meant to be taken seriously, even in 4. Him getting the spotlight felt more like the creators acknowledging that he exists and a cool moment for fans. Not to mention he's been in pretty much all of them.

The dialogue is terrible and you know it, or you just forgot how awful it's always been.

I'm not understanding your reasoning behind raiden.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 10:59:52 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 06, 2017, 10:32:57 PM

Lol Johnny was never meant to be taken seriously, even in 4.

um

yes. yes we are.

he has his own action sequence at the end in which he explains why he's been having shit fits the entire series.

YouTube

even even fucking marries Meryl at the end

we are very much intended to suddenly take him seriously

do me a favour and replay this game. then come back to me.

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Him getting the spotlight felt more like the creators acknowledging that he exists and a cool moment for fans. Not to mention he's been in pretty much all of them.

how it is a "cool moment" for the literal joke character of the series to somehow become the uber badass chiseled good-looking blond sharpshooter that marries the love interest

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The dialogue is terrible and you know it, or you just forgot how awful it's always been.

there are instances of bad dialogue in the series but it's consistently garbage in this one

pretty much every game since mgs3 has had bad dialogue, actually. luciana mentioned something about the cowriter leaving before peace walker. but i'm more willing to forgive peace walker because it's a much better game and it tells a much better story.

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I'm not understanding your reasoning behind raiden.

in short, his appearance confirms things from mgs2 that shouldn't have been confirmed (because the ambiguity of that game was part of the whole point), and his transformation into the cyborg ninja (more fanservice) is both out of place and unnecessary

Dietrich Six · August 06, 2017, 11:05:37 PM

TIL snake doesn't enjoy metal gear solid games.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 11:07:12 PM

good job refuting me

Dietrich Six · August 06, 2017, 11:25:40 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 10:59:52 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 06, 2017, 10:32:57 PM
Lol Johnny was never meant to be taken seriously, even in 4.

um

yes. yes we are.

he has his own action sequence at the end in which he explains why he's been having shit fits the entire series.

YouTube

even even fucking marries Meryl at the end

we are very much intended to suddenly take him seriously

do me a favour and replay this game. then come back to me.

Quote
Him getting the spotlight felt more like the creators acknowledging that he exists and a cool moment for fans. Not to mention he's been in pretty much all of them.

how it is a "cool moment" for the literal joke character of the series to somehow become the uber badass chiseled good-looking blond sharpshooter that marries the love interest

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The dialogue is terrible and you know it, or you just forgot how awful it's always been.

there are instances of bad dialogue in the series but it's consistently garbage in this one

pretty much every game since mgs3 has had bad dialogue, actually. luciana mentioned something about the cowriter leaving before peace walker. but i'm more willing to forgive peace walker because it's a much better game and it tells a much better story.

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I'm not understanding your reasoning behind raiden.

in short, his appearance confirms things from mgs2 that shouldn't have been confirmed (because the ambiguity of that game was part of the whole point), and his transformation into the cyborg ninja (more fanservice) is both out of place and unnecessary

One action scene and a reasoning behind him being a bumbling idiot doesn't all of a sudden mean we're supposed to take him seriously. He's been a mainstay of the series since the original and we're supposed to be attached to him. It may be a little fan servicey but the whole game was a love letter to fans of the series.

He's still a moron in the game and one scene where he's on point can't undo all the things he's done through the series. Him marrying Maryl is the only thing that bothered me, but only because Maryl is supposed to be a serious character.

Mgs1 had atrocious dialogue that sounded like it was written by an uncaring anime dub team, 2 was slightly better but was consistently ridiculous in subject matter. The rest are just boring over all and spew "ideals" every other second. It's always been bad, 4 is just over the top to a pretty large degree.

If you could spoiler what specifically you mean that would be great. As for him becoming cyborg ninja, it fits his character. He was constantly trying to outdo everyone and surpass solid snake. After getting his ass kicked by vamp the next logical step is to attain a power greater than his.

Ambiguity is great and it is a bit of a shame how a lot of questions were answered that should have been left alone but it doesn't kill it for me.

Luciana · August 06, 2017, 11:27:33 PM

I have to go to bed and i'll reply tomorrow, but Snake seriously take a chill pill on your arguing. Telling me to kill myself over something you disagree with me on is way too childish.

Dietrich Six · August 06, 2017, 11:31:51 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 11:07:12 PM

good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

Luciana · August 06, 2017, 11:36:43 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 06, 2017, 11:31:51 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 11:07:12 PM
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

To be fair I've gotten Verb to change his opinion on something before, or at least understand my position on it and be more understanding towards it.

Anyway, NIGHT!

Dietrich Six · August 06, 2017, 11:43:16 PM

Quote from: Luciana on August 06, 2017, 11:36:43 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 06, 2017, 11:31:51 PM
Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 11:07:12 PM
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.
To be fair I've gotten Verb to change his opinion on something before, or at least understand my position on it and be more understanding towards it.

Anyway, NIGHT!

I'll wait for the one more post fam.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 11:46:27 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 06, 2017, 11:25:40 PM

One action scene and a reasoning behind him being a bumbling idiot doesn't all of a sudden mean we're supposed to take him seriously.

Yes, it does, because we're just supposed to expect that Meryl wants to marry him conveniently after this explanation. Imagine if he was still the shit-induced gag character he has always been when he proposes to her. Imagine her saying yes. How ridiculous does that sound? Him being actually competent is purely so that we take him seriously and can feasibly see Merly liking him

Jesus I thought you were at least of average intelligence but god damn this is some basic shit.

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He's been a mainstay of the series since the original and we're supposed to be attached to him. It may be a little fan servicey but the whole game was a love letter to fans of the series.

I don't think there are any Johnny fans that needed servicing in this way. Him shitting up a storm for 2/3 of the game was enough.

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He's still a moron in the game and one scene where he's on point can't undo all the things he's done through the series. Him marrying Maryl is the only thing that bothered me, but only because Maryl is supposed to be a serious character.

You even contradict yourself here, what the hell

are you on drugs

yeah, we're supposed to take him seriously with this one scene, but we don't, because it's ridiculous, which is the entire problem

fuck

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Mgs1 had atrocious dialogue that sounded like it was written by an uncaring anime dub team, 2 was slightly better but was consistently ridiculous in subject matter. The rest are just boring over all and spew "ideals" every other second. It's always been bad, 4 is just over the top to a pretty large degree.

not at all. mgs1 and 2 suffered from translation issues, which you can see whenever Snake repeats what the last character said in a question. it's a japanese oral custom that i can't remember the name of that simulates conversation, and as the series goes on (mostly after 4) it gets much better.

that still doesn't make the dialogue bad at all. it's serviceable in 1 and 2, good in 3.

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If you could spoiler what specifically you mean that would be great. As for him beginning cyborg ninja, it fits his character. He was constantly trying to outdo everyone and surpass solid snake. After getting his ass kicked by vamp the next logical step is to attain a power greater than his.

it's just drastic. he was supposed to have left his life behind at the end of mgs2 to find his own way but apparently his own way is just doing what he had always been doing. he was intentionally under-characterised to allow him to function as the player's proxy.

to be honest i'd have to rewatch the cutscenes and refresh myself with the game. metal gear's been out of my mind for awhile now and when i play 4 i skip the cutscenes. i'm having trouble remember my numerous problems between the two games. there's something there about raiden, rose and his son. rose entirely is a question mark to me.

the game is just at its worst when it tries to go about explaining mgs2 at all.

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Ambiguity is great and it is a bit of a shame how a lot of questions were answered that should have been left alone but it doesn't kill it for me.

the ambiguity is the heart and soul of mgs2, and without it, the entire game is ruined. that's the point. you're supposed to want answers but not have them.

Elai · August 06, 2017, 11:47:54 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 06, 2017, 11:31:51 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 11:07:12 PM
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

i'll change my opinion when you present reasonable and overwhelming evidence

Elai · August 06, 2017, 11:49:26 PM

Quote from: Luciana on August 06, 2017, 11:27:33 PM

I have to go to bed and i'll reply tomorrow, but Snake seriously take a chill pill on your arguing. Telling me to kill myself over something you disagree with me on is way too childish.

it's more fun this way

Elai · August 06, 2017, 11:52:03 PM

it feels good to suggest suicide

Dietrich Six · August 06, 2017, 11:58:47 PM

I'm not seeing the contradiction, he's a joke character that fans of the series enjoyed seeing, fleshing him out in the final chapter isn't insulting in the slightest. To be fair it is a bit of a misstep but it adds a lot to his involvement in the original games. I was also under the assumption that Maryl was attracted to that bumbling side of him. You don't marry someone who saves your life once. They were on a team for a long time previous, I'm sure one instance wasn't enough to change her perception of him.

Bad dialogue is bad dialogue, translation problems included. Doesn't take away from the games imo, but that's what mgs has always been about for me. It's basically an over the top anime that you play.

Raiden having a kid is the one thing that should be confusing about this whole scenario. He was raised as a child to be an unthinking, unfeeling soldier. When he said he wanted to pursue his own path I took it more as he was done fighting for others and wanted to fight for his own cause, like his idols. He's no longer a soldier following orders he doesn't believe in, he found something he wanted to fight for.

Dietrich Six · August 06, 2017, 11:59:33 PM

Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 11:47:54 PM

Quote from: Twisted Innards on August 06, 2017, 11:31:51 PM
Quote from: Snake on August 06, 2017, 11:07:12 PM
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

i'll change my opinion when you present reasonable and overwhelming evidence

Suuuuuure