Phantom Menace was okay if you treat it as Obi-Wan's story. I think the biggest problem was that it didn't have a central antagonist (yeah you see Darth Sidious a few times, but he doesn't really carry anything in terms of the movie), meaning you don't get the kind of tight focus that it really needed. It was much better paced, even if it was layered in cheese and Jar Jar (who was pretty bad comic relief even by SW standards).

I'd rather have a cheesy movie than one that I remember for being forgettable/memorable for a lot of bad things.

Fuck you Jar Jar was amazing.

also the trade federation was pretty explicitly palpatine's arm-up, and could be described as the antagonist

No, C-3P0 was the C-3P0 of the movie--Jar Jar was his own character, and he was funny.

You can argue that the fact that they made it so Anakin was the one who invented C-3P0 all along was stupid and didn't make any sense, but ultimately, it's a series designed for kids and family, so who gives a fuck.

also the trade federation was pretty explicitly palpatine's arm-up, and could be described as the antagonist

That's the problem. A corporation is kind of a big entity. You can give a name for something all you want, but we never got a face to use as reference. And if we did, if was more like a room full of people who don't look menacing or threatening. That's what made A New Hope good: Darth Vader was a clear and persistent antagonist from the first scene of the movie. The Empire is one of his weapons (what the Trade Federation should have been instead of THE big bad), but it was used to support his threat and not replace or rank equal to him.

Quote from: Verbatim on October 18, 2015, 11:42:53 PM

also the trade federation was pretty explicitly palpatine's arm-up, and could be described as the antagonist

That's the problem. A corporation is kind of a big entity. You can give a name for something all you want, but we never got a face to use as reference. And if we did, if was more like a room full of people who don't look menacing or threatening. That's what made A New Hope good: Darth Vader was a clear and persistent antagonist from the first scene of the movie. The Empire is one of his weapons (what the Trade Federation should have been instead of THE big bad), but it was used to support his threat and not replace or rank equal to him.

No, I don't think you need a face, though. Just because it's the most common form of conflict (man vs. man) doesn't mean it's the only way.

Man vs. nature, man vs. society, and man vs. corporation (in this case) have all been done and done well in the past--and I think TPM did it just as well. I've heard better complaints about the film than that.

No, C-3P0 was the C-3P0 of the movie--Jar Jar was his own character, and he was funny.

You can argue that the fact that they made it so Anakin was the one who invented C-3P0 all along was stupid and didn't make any sense, but ultimately, it's a series designed for kids and family, so who gives a fuck.

C3-P0 didn't have any accidentally-did-something-good-on-accident scenes, or really any funny scenes in TPM.

That doesn't even bother me; I just don't know why Jar Jar was a thing. They ended up reverting to the Hidden Fortress dynamic between C3-P0 and R2-D2 in the rest of the trilogy, which minimized Jar Jar's role down to nothing (because C3-P0 became the comic relief again). All Jar Jar did was "hurry durrrr look I'm so stupid" comedy; he had no dynamic with the cast besides being loathed. And when all of your protagonists (the people you're supposed to relate to) all loathe him, why are we supposed to like him?

Quote from: Avatar on October 18, 2015, 11:55:40 PM

Except that I laugh and/or smile at funny stuff because I'm not a robot.

Jar Jar was not funny. He was cringeworthy.

If I'm watching a move alone, and I see a mildly amusing scene of Jar Jar eating food like a frog eats a fly, and I don't laugh, that doesn't make me a robot. Most people don't laugh at funny scenes in movies if they're alone--we're much more prone to laughter if we are with company.

Besides, what was cringeworthy about him? Like, nothing.

Like everything he did.

I couldn't take Episode 1 seriously at all. Good on Lucas for getting rid of him by Episode 3 as a protagonist.

And when all of your protagonists (the people you're supposed to relate to) all loathe him, why are we supposed to like him?

i can't believe you actually asked this question

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButtMonkey
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FunnyBackgroundEvent
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foil

I like him because he's funny. He lightens up the mood and serves as a foil for some of the more annoyingly stoic characters like Qui-Gon. It's hard not to root for him during the Naboo siege, and when he gets promoted to general at the end for his actions, you feel happy for him. At least, you're supposed to. I did. Since he's generally looked at as a buffoon, even by everyone in-universe, it's heartwarming to see him finally being embraced by his people at the end.

How you can not like that, I have no idea.

You don't have to like him, but it shouldn't be THAT hard to come up with why someone might like him.

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 18, 2015, 11:58:41 PM

And when all of your protagonists (the people you're supposed to relate to) all loathe him, why are we supposed to like him?

i can't believe you actually asked this question

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButtMonkey
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FunnyBackgroundEvent
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foil

I like him because he's funny. He lightens up the mood and serves as a foil for some of the more annoyingly stoic characters like Qui-Gon. It's hard not to root for him during the Naboo siege, and when he gets promoted to general at the end for his actions, you feel happy for him. At least, you're supposed to. I did. Since he's generally looked at as a buffoon, even by everyone in-universe, it's heartwarming to see him finally being embraced by his people at the end.

How you can not like that, I have no idea.

See, there's a difference between being the butt of the joke (again, C3-P0 was nearly every time in the other films) and having pieces of the cast actually wish Qui-Gon hadn't saved him, or being annoyed with having to constantly treat him like a child.

Nothing you just linked gives a reason for actual loathing. If anything, it reinforces the fact that C3-P0 did everything that Jar Jar did, but ten times better.

He's supposed to be funny, which he was. . . when I was seven, and ANY jokes would have been okay. Not because they're actually funny, but because I was seven. I can still watch the OT, RotS, and even parts of AotC where I might break a smile or giggle-- but humor was the one place that TPM totally blew it. Everything else was meh-tier at worst.

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 19, 2015, 12:04:59 AM

I didn't say that was my main complaint in any way. I'm just saying that it was a bit shoddy at times, which I'm sure you could agree with. It's not that it was ever bad, it just tried to be both too much like the OT while trying to be a completely new work; when you try to be two completely different things, you fail at both.

The Trade Federation is supposed to be the Empire, but there's no Darth Vader. Jar Jar is the comic relief (otherwise C3-P0's role, even in the film too), but he doesn't manage to be anything more than that (which gets monotonous). Anakin and Obi-Wan are both Luke-ish characters, like they hadn't decided yet whether they wanted the Prequels to center around Anakin or not yet.

None of it was bad, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't fall flat every time. Revenge of the Sith found the perfect balance between homage and innovating the story, and that's why it's tied for the #2 spot for me.

It isn't my favorite in the series, either--I just think there's more prudent things to criticize. You mentioned the chase length in AotC? The podrace in Episode I was that times ten (even though it was spectacular display of special effects). And they threw in Jabba the Hutt in for no reason. The point is, Anakin won--the race probably didn't need to drag on for as long as it did.

I agree the pod race went on too long. Admittedly, I don't remember it being that bad; but even saying it was, that doesn't mean it's the only thing I can talk about. The entire thing this dialogue erupted from was me saying that, despite its flaws, TPM is still much better than AotC.

I'm not saying that you can't think he's funny. Click is one of my favorite movies of all time, and that's an Adam Sandler film. I'm not really in the position to judge people for what they think is funny.

I'm just explaining why I think that Jar Jar was a pointless character.

It's good that you realize TPM is better than AotC, but I mean, I'm trying to speak in defense of all the prequels right now.

I mean, the fact that you keep saying that there are larger criticisms does imply that you'd think I'm not complaining about the right things, but I digress.

Well yeah, I don't think you're complaining about the right things--that's why we're having the discussion. I've heard more salient arguments from other prequel haters (and I know you're not a prequel "hater"), and I haven't really seen you make any of those yet. I can try to keep citing examples from the film and ask your thoughts about them, I guess, but that seems fruitless.

Really, I'm realizing during this that I would put ROTJ equal to TPM on my list.

See, I never quite got this, either. You haven't had much good to say about TPM, so to put it on par with RotJ (my favorite of the prequels) is just mind-blowing to me. RotJ is more like an 8/10 for me, as far as Star Wars films go. As a film film, it probably gets a 6/10 or a 7/10, like you. I'm not sure if you do it like that, where you base the scores relative to the other films in the series rather than with film in general.

It's amusing just how fucking backwards my opinions on the Star Wars movies are, compared to the general consensus. Not only do I prefer the prequels--I think the least popular of the OT is the best one, and I have never seen any legit criticisms of it. Except for the ewoks, which actually aren't that bad at all, and because the stormtroopers can't shoot for shit. The response to which is simply, "It's a movie."

And yeah, I know you've explained to me why you don't like RotJ as much before--but others haven't.
I can't say I remember what you said, though--but I don't remember agreeing.

I've heard more salient arguments from other prequel haters (and I know you're not a prequel "hater"), and I haven't really seen you make any of those yet.

Because I don't hate them, like you said. I'm only providing examples relative to why I organized the movies as I did; in other words I'm not trying to talk shit. I'm just saying why I didn't like AotC, and why I didn't like TPM as much as some others. Which was kind of the point of the thread, I thought, since it's asking about our personal rankings and all.

See, I never quite got this, either. You haven't had much good to say about TPM, so to put it on par with RotJ (my favorite of the prequels) is just mind-blowing to me.

Despite the fact that ROTJ is technically more satisfying, they're about equal in terms of how much I enjoy them as a whole. ROTJ is like a 7.5/10, just slightly above TPM (if not on par).

It's amusing just how fucking backwards my opinions on the Star Wars movies are, compared to the general consensus. Not only do I prefer the prequels--I think the least popular of the OT is the best one, and I have never seen any legit criticisms of it.

Everyone is free to have fun and enjoy themselves. Really, a lot of these issues are more about the individual's taste. Jar Jar is a good example of that, and just the fact that there is no definitive list here for the best-worst order of the films. We could do an in-depth analysis of the films to see which one is the best in terms of cinematic and thematic consistency, development, effectiveness, etc, but I would rather like to keep enjoying the films.

Well, I'll write how I feel about this. I've been a huge SW fan since I was about ... who knows... eight? Now, let's be completely honest here. I am not a fan of the films. It was the expanded universe that really got to me. The films, I consider very shit, but still, I consider them great because they started such an amazing universe. If anything, I'm a huge fan of the Clone Wars TV show, both CG and Cartoon, and Star Wars Rebels, which is starting to become pretty amazing.

Now, here's my deal. Here's how I rank them, from worst to best.

Episode 6: Return of the Jedi:
Yeah, yeah. "Oh you're a fucking faggot for thinking so. You should burn in hell, blah blah blah. How would you rank this under the prequels?" Well sit your ass down and I'll explain why Return of the Jedi was at the bottom of the list because jesus christ it was fucking awful. You basically have this amazing, at the time, film series that was supposed to expand into even more films, but.. George Lucas and Lucas Films being complete, complete cunts, decide to end it. There's that plot element of Luke and Leia being siblings, which made no fucking sense, because unless G. Lucas had this fucking fetish of incest, then it wasn't supposed to be a thing. Luke and Leia being siblings was the cause of George Lucas scrapping the next series of films, and going, "Okay dude, I want you to throw all of that shit into this last film because I really don't want to do it later." Oh, and let's not even talk about the stupid recycled plot of, "Oh. Dude, okay. Yeah. Second Death Star. Let's fucking do it." Not to mention, Battle of Endor? Really? That was such a shitty last battle. It was awfully made with a bunch of furry little creatures that seemed to conquer the Empire's mighty army, by themselves, even though an entire fucking army of Alliance soldiers couldn't even beat them. The Alliance was losing hard until they blew up the Death Star, twice.

Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
Yeah, I really don't need to say much about this. The Phantom Menace was terrible in many ways, but it didn't have recycled plot points. It was just bad acting, bad direction, and the introduction of Midichlorians which completely destroyed the idea of being a Jedi as spiritual. Oh, and podracing. Maul was cool though with the introduction of a new type of lightsaber. Pretty cool.

Episode 2: Attack of the Clones.
See, I really actually liked it. Attack of the Clones, while being a stupid love story had shown more worlds than the rest of the films combined. I honestly thought that was pretty cool. It showed Naboo, Geonosis, Coruscant, the Lower City, and a ton of other places. I really enjoy the show of architecture. I thought it was pretty beautiful. Although it lacked the adventure that the original trilogy had. It although, had a great portrayal of the beginning of the Clone Wars that we heard about in A New Hope.

Episode 4: A New Hope
A new hope's purpose was only to establish the universe. It was pretty awful, let's be real here. It had a generic, while great for its time, story line and not to mention all it really was a Damsel in Distress story. They wanted to save Leia. Big bad guy kills everyone. Big bad guy kills mentor. Student cries. Harrison Ford was amazing in it by the way. This film was only supposed to be a one shot. It's why it was so close ended. They didn't expect for a sequel until it succeeded to swell.

Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith
It showed the downfall of Anakin Skywalker and rise of Darth Vader. Other than whiny Anakin, it was probably the most emotion filled of the series. From the destruction of the Jedi Order to an actually good lightsaber battle. It did very well in showing the gaps in power, which most of the films failed to do. The Emperor and Yoda were close to equal, but Yoda lost in the end. Anakin and Obi Wan were pretty equal but Anakin being arrogant made him suffer. It was pretty amazing in those parts.

Episode 5: Empire Strikes Back.
Battle of Hoth? Bruh. Reveal of Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father? Bruh. I can't say much. This is literally the top and the best of the series for a damn reason. Oh, and Yoda shows up. NOT TO MENTION LANDO FUCKING CALRISSIAN.

5 felt oddly formless to me, the different acts hardly felt connected, and it felt like a disjointed journey through odd space. For that reason I prefer 4, which stuck to the more conventional story structure and benefited from it.

2 <1 <3 <5=6 <4