Why free will probably does not exist, and why we shouldn't act like it does.

Ian · December 19, 2016, 07:48:08 PM

Can I get an example of Hard Determinism in comparison to Soft?

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 10:02:01 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 05:52:49 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 05:52:15 PM
Lemme know when you provide evidence for me to refute
The laws of motion.

Behaviors of gravity and inertia don't make decisions for you.

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 10:37:22 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 10:02:01 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 05:52:49 PM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 05:52:15 PM
Lemme know when you provide evidence for me to refute
The laws of motion.
Behaviors of gravity and inertia don't make decisions for you.

...Yes, they literally do. It's because of gravity that we can't jump 20 feet even if we want to.

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 10:53:17 PM

Quote from: Ian on December 19, 2016, 07:48:08 PM

Can I get an example of Hard Determinism in comparison to Soft?

Hard determinism is something like the butterfly effect, where the effects of a hurricane at some point in the future could have been contributed to by the flap of a butterfly's wing months prior (this is just a rhetorical example to illustrate the point, not a real phenomenon being suggested). Hard determinism is the hypothesis that all events can be tied back to another event.

Under this system, we could theoretically predict the future, given that we know all the variables.

Soft determinism is stupid, and therefore harder to explain. Basically, events are predetermined on the macroscopic level, but little things such as a butterfly flapping its wings has virtually no effect on anything. We can still make our own decisions, but some larger events are inevitable.

Soft determinism is wrong, and simply a comfort blanket for those who find hard determinism hard to swallow.

Hard determinism is not belief in destiny. Just because everything is predetermined doesn't mean that all events are leading up to something special. Things lead up to bullshit and bullshit alone. They're not determined by a benevolent god--they're not determined by a god at all. They're determined by simple physics. Objects in motion tending to stay in motion until they're inevitably stopped by an outside force.

We're like a carton of milk being spilled. There's nothing random or chaotic about it.

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 10:55:20 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 10:37:22 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 10:02:01 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 05:52:49 PM
Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 05:52:15 PM
Lemme know when you provide evidence for me to refute
The laws of motion.
Behaviors of gravity and inertia don't make decisions for you.
...Yes, they literally do. It's because of gravity that we can't jump 20 feet even if we want to.

You're discussing physical incapabilities, not free will. No, we cannot do things that are impossible, doesn't change the fact that we have a choice to try.

I fail to see the correlation between the laws of physics and free will.

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 11:00:26 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 10:55:20 PM

No, we cannot do things that are impossible, doesn't change the fact that we have a choice to try.

Oxymoron.

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I fail to see the correlation between the laws of physics and free will.

When objects move, they move forever until they are stopped. When they stop, they cause other things to move, and then other things, and then other things, which causes this big chain reaction that never stops--it's ongoing right now. You can't control it.

At NO point during abiogenesis was manifest the ability to make our own choices. That never happened. Our actions are the result of brain chemistry. Complex little events happening in our mind that are nonetheless part of this chain reaction.

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 11:09:40 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 11:00:26 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 10:55:20 PM
No, we cannot do things that are impossible, doesn't change the fact that we have a choice to try.
Oxymoron.

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I fail to see the correlation between the laws of physics and free will.
When objects move, they move forever until they are stopped. When they stop, they cause other things to move, and then other things, and then other things, which causes this big chain reaction that never stops--it's ongoing right now. You can't control it.

At NO point during abiogenesis was manifest the ability to make our own choices. That never happened. Our actions are the result of brain chemistry. Complex little events happening in our mind that are nonetheless part of this chain reaction.

I just moved my arm and stopped it, I'm relatively sure that hasn't changed anything. Also this isn't actual evidence.

Stating something as fact when it is clearly a theory doesn't make you correct.

Plus that's a pretty convenient cop out to say that our actions are strictly chemicals in our brains.

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 11:10:10 PM

And how the fuck was that an oxymoron?

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 11:14:54 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:09:40 PM

I just moved my arm and stopped it, I'm relatively sure that hasn't changed anything.

You wouldn't have done so were we not having this conversation. That was a determined event. I triggered something in your mind that caused you to move your arm and stop it in an effort to demonstrate free will, but you didn't actually demonstrate anything more than your own illusions of choice which we all have.

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Also this isn't actual evidence.

I literally cannot give you any hard evidence, just like you can't give me hard evidence for free will. This is a philosophical subject.

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Plus that's a pretty convenient cop out to say that our actions are strictly chemicals in our brains.

But they are. That doesn't mean we shouldn't incarcerate criminals and continue doing the right thing. It's just that our choice to do so is an illusion. We have no choice. We do what we're programmed to do.

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 11:15:39 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:10:10 PM

And how the fuck was that an oxymoron?

You said we can't do impossible things, yet proceeded to claim that we have the ability to choose.

We don't. That is impossible.

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 11:19:38 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 11:15:39 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
And how the fuck was that an oxymoron?
You said we can't do impossible things, yet proceeded to claim that we have the ability to choose.

We don't. That is impossible.

Not an oxymoron, and I was referring to the choice to try. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean you can't try.

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 11:25:11 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 11:14:54 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:09:40 PM
I just moved my arm and stopped it, I'm relatively sure that hasn't changed anything.
You wouldn't have done so were we not having this conversation. That was a determined event. I triggered something in your mind that caused you to move your arm and stop it in an effort to demonstrate free will, but you didn't actually demonstrate anything more than your own illusions of choice which we all have.

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Also this isn't actual evidence.
I literally cannot give you any hard evidence, just like you can't give me hard evidence for free will. This is a philosophical subject.

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Plus that's a pretty convenient cop out to say that our actions are strictly chemicals in our brains.
But they are. That doesn't mean we shouldn't incarcerate criminals and continue doing the right thing. It's just that our choice to do so is an illusion. We have no choice. We do what we're programmed to do.

If free will is an illusion then it's immoral to punish criminals.

And as far as your brain chemical theory goes there's literally no answer to that. Out of the countless things I can do or say you can always blame my choice on chemicals in my brain.

The fact that I choose to do these things is all the evidence I need but you can carry on saying it was predetermined by a chemical reaction.

There's really no point continuing this conversation.

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 11:36:30 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:25:11 PM

If free will is an illusion then it's immoral to punish criminals.

1. That's fucking stupid.
2. Why?
3. That's fucking retarded.

Are you just regurgitating what Das said?

Because you should never regurgitate what Das says.

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And as far as your brain chemical theory goes there's literally no answer to that. Out of the countless things I can do or say you can always blame my choice on chemicals in my brain.

The fact that I choose to do these things is all the evidence I need but you can carry on saying it was predetermined by a chemical reaction.

Of course. That's the whole idea.

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 11:39:10 PM

If you literally aren't responsible for your actions you shouldn't be punished for them.

You aren't going to learn anything from the punishment, your actions are chosen for you.

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 11:42:03 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:39:10 PM

If you literally aren't responsible for your actions you shouldn't be punished for them.

You aren't going to learn anything from the punishment, your actions are chosen for you.

But we still need to incarcerate criminals so that they don't cause any more harm. It's not about punishing the guilty. It's not about teaching anyone anything. It's about preventing harm in any way that we feasibly can.

Dietrich Six · December 19, 2016, 11:45:35 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 11:42:03 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:39:10 PM
If you literally aren't responsible for your actions you shouldn't be punished for them.

You aren't going to learn anything from the punishment, your actions are chosen for you.
But we still need to incarcerate criminals so that they don't cause any more harm. It's not about punishing the guilty. It's not about teaching anyone anything. It's about preventing harm in any way that we feasibly can.

We let murderers out all the time.

Doesn't change that it's immoral. Taking someone's freedom away because the universe decided they were murderers is wrong.

Verbatim · December 19, 2016, 11:50:23 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:45:35 PM

We let murderers out all the time.

Doesn't change that it's immoral. Taking someone's freedom away because the universe decided they were murderers is wrong.

What's more wrong--taking the role of "good guy" and incarcerating those who were given the role of "bad guy," or letting those who were given the role of "bad guy" go free so that they end up killing whoever they end up killing?

You are not making any sense and are grasping for straws.

I think if the universe decides that you're a good guy, you should be quite happy about that.

Dietrich Six · December 20, 2016, 12:04:12 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 19, 2016, 11:50:23 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:45:35 PM
We let murderers out all the time.

Doesn't change that it's immoral. Taking someone's freedom away because the universe decided they were murderers is wrong.
What's more wrong--taking the role of "good guy" and incarcerating those who were given the role of "bad guy," or letting those who were given the role of "bad guy" go free so that they end up killing whoever they end up killing?

You are not making any sense and are grasping for straws.

I think if the universe decides that you're a good guy, you should be quite happy about that.

I'm worried I might be a bad guy. What if my brain decides I should murder someone? I don't want to be punished for a crime I had no hand in.

Dietrich Six · December 20, 2016, 12:05:41 AM

That would be like chopping the hands off of a starving man because he stole food.

Verbatim · December 20, 2016, 12:12:02 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 20, 2016, 12:04:12 AM

I'm worried I might be a bad guy. What if my brain decides I should murder someone? I don't want to be punished for a crime I had no hand in.

If you don't want to kill anybody, you won't. It's not like you and your brain are separate entities--you are your brain. Despite everything being predetermined, you still have a very strong illusion of choice, and an even stronger illusion of self-control. It's these illusions that have allowed our species to climb to the top.

challengerX · December 20, 2016, 09:16:48 AM

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challengerX · December 20, 2016, 09:17:58 AM

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Desty · December 20, 2016, 09:36:08 AM

Oh my FUCKING GOD

We've already had this discussion, you stupid fucks.

I hate agreeing with Pothead, but he's the only one making sense. Free will does NOT exist. You are both fucking idiots jesus christ.

Chally, if you wanted to go outside and punch someone, you could, and it'd be your choice, but it wouldn't be something you did completely out of reason. There'd be a reason for doing it. You don't just go outside to punch someone, because there are infinite amounts of other things you can do. Why pick that one thing?

Dietrich, we are confined by our limitations. Does that make sense to you? Because I can't fly or teleport to school, I have to travel by train, and because there are shady characters on the train I mistrust humanity to the point where the next time somebody asks me for help I will turn them down due to the influence etc
It's like a snowball effect of every single factor imaginable.

I reckon the only one with some free will is a being created from nothing, born into nothing, but has the ability to do anything. When I say nothing I mean nothing. Thing is, that being would probably not even realize they're alive.

Dietrich Six · December 20, 2016, 10:59:13 AM

Being limited in what you can do doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. Being influenced by others or your situation doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. Being medically depressed and having the chemicals in your brain go haywire does not mean free will doesn't exist.

If you make a choice you make a choice. This whole illusion of choice is just another cop out.

Verbatim · December 20, 2016, 11:03:23 AM

Quote from: challengerX on December 20, 2016, 09:16:48 AM

You don't. Free will exists.

sorry, religious person, but it doesn't

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If I wanted to I could go outside and punch someone in the face.

that's not free will

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I think it's pretty obvious you are religious since you have the ideology you have.

except i'm not

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I'm explaining things to you that you're not understanding.

i understand everything i'm saying better than you ever will

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Actually they literally mean that the reason Billy got shot was because it was part of gods plan.

yes, which is insane, and not part of the philosophy of determinism

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To think something is planned or that there is a pattern or course is laughable.

yes

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Death being a certainty has nothing to do with it, and we may well see the aging process slowed down significantly in our lifetime.

what the fuck are you babbling about

Verbatim · December 20, 2016, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: challengerX on December 20, 2016, 09:17:58 AM

Have a little respect.

you're a drunk, and this is likely why you can't think things through very well

lay off the alcohol and then have a conversation with me when your mind isn't addled

though i wouldn't be shocked if your mind wasn't constantly addled--it would explain a lot

Desty · December 20, 2016, 11:14:51 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 20, 2016, 10:59:13 AM

Being limited in what you can do doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. Being influenced by others or your situation doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. Being medically depressed and having the chemicals in your brain go haywire does not mean free will doesn't exist.

If you make a choice you make a choice. This whole illusion of choice is just another cop out.

Those are a lot of empty words. I've already explained myself, but I'll do it again.

If you make a choice you make a choice. That doesn't mean that the reasoning behind your choice wasn't influenced by the external world.

If I buy a coffee, that's free will, right? Well, let's go deeper. I want to buy that coffee because when I was at home I drank a cup of coffee, and now I like coffee. Still free will, right? Deeper we shall go once again. I drank the cup of coffee because my dad had bought a new coffee machine and I wanted to try it out. Free will, right? Let's go deeper. My dad had bought the coffee machine, because he had been influenced by ads, and a sale in a shop he just happened to pass by because he had business in that area.

Do you now see the many reasons why something has happened? If one of the reasons weren't present, you wouldn't have bought that coffee in the first place, so because your actions are the result of previous incidents they're not "free will", they're a product of your environment.

Dietrich Six · December 20, 2016, 12:52:03 PM

Influenced by the external world does not equal made by the external world

Word Wizard · December 20, 2016, 01:27:26 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on December 19, 2016, 11:19:38 PM

Just because you can't do something doesn't mean you can't try.

Word Wizard · December 20, 2016, 01:34:38 PM

Yo, Free Willies, how to you differentiate between something with free will and something without? Do computers have free will?