Trans men are men (but transwomen aren't women)

 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
https://medium.com/@aytchellis/trans-men-are-men-but-transwomen-are-not-women-7ba7a533e8a5

Medium.com article that I wholeheartedly agree with. What do you guys think?



 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

47,636 posts
patent horseshit


 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
Maybe explain how?


 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
But the fact that my role model friend person who I think is cool on this board, disagrees with this article, has brightened my night a lot


 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
Also I'm still watching evangilon I've just been busy


 
DAS B00T x2
| Cultural Appropriator
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: DAS B00T x2
IP: Logged

37,574 posts
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
ah but what is a woman but a featherless biped who can't fucking drive?


Solonoid | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Jx493
PSN: Jx493
Steam: Jx493
ID: Solonoid
IP: Logged

13,388 posts
 
The writer bases this presumption on the idea that it's easy for a woman to understand what being a man is like but impossible for a man to understand what being a woman is like.

I would say that if the latter is true, the former must be false, and vice-versa. The terf who wrote this article seems to believe that a male mindset and role in society is very simple, forward, and easy to understand from an outsider's perspective, while a female mindset and role is nebulous and impossible to comprehend if you haven't lived it.

I'd counter that both are equally nebulous, and often misunderstood by closed minded people, but that trans women, and trans men, both have experience as the gender they identify with. To say a trans woman can't understand womanhood is obscene. The assertion basically says that society will continue treating trans women as men, and they retain the privileges of male life after transitioning. This simply isn't true.

Most of society, unfortunately, does not see trans women as women, but they also don't see them as men. They see them as less; not equal. On top of not being seen as a man, they're also subject to prejudice commonly levied against all trans people.

The article also asserts that television and media provide a perfectly clear insight on what being a man is like, what's going on inside the male brain, and what a man's place is in society, while saying that the same is not true of women. Unfortunately, neither is true.

Drama is not real life, and you cannot simply understand what being a man is by watching movies and tv. Indeed, that is merely introspection based on drama that you have watched or read unfold. It's not that you get a clear idea of what being the other gender is like from consuming media written by and about that gender. It's that you come up with your own ideas, using their expression as a sort of mental prompt for your imaginary exploration.

The only way to understand what being a man or being a woman is like is to live as one, and both trans men and trans women have accomplished that.

The ideas of terfs have no place in serious discussions about gender or the reshaping of society, and though they should be free to voice their opinions, it would be pragmatic and wise to ignore them altogether, especially from a policymaker's perspective.


Solonoid | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Jx493
PSN: Jx493
Steam: Jx493
ID: Solonoid
IP: Logged

13,388 posts
 
btw, I dunno if people still consider terf a slur, but I'm not sure what you would call a radical feminist who makes a point to exclude trans women. imo it's like calling a fascist "nazi"


Solonoid | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Jx493
PSN: Jx493
Steam: Jx493
ID: Solonoid
IP: Logged

13,388 posts
 
oh and the claim that men have no gender based political interests is a joke

Men have been used, historically, in many ways by women. Different than the ways they use women, but equally troubling. Court's prejudices against men have begun to dwindle, just as women's rights have improved in recent years. However, just as women are still often marginalized, objectified, and taken advantage of, society still often demands that men be stoic caretakers and personal piggy banks for women, and see not only backlash from their peers, but often backlash from the legal system for not playing this role.

Equality means equality. If we want to elevate women to the place they deserve to be in society, we must also remove the gender biased constraints we have placed on men. Otherwise, all we've achieved is switching which gender has too much power.


 
Cheat
| Flora Colossus
 
more |
XBL: Cheatlancer
PSN:
Steam: Cheatlancer
ID: Cheatlancer
IP: Logged

6,657 posts
Hmm...
Fuck terfs amirite?

I agree with Solonoid. The article is shit and the author is coming at this stuff with wrong assumptions right out the gate.

They also use that weird position of “feeling like” and “identifying as” language. As if being trans is like an emotion.


Ingy | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Ingloriouswho98
IP: Logged

13,837 posts
 
I don't know about all this but if the trans community knew about Class, they'd disown him in an instant


 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
I don't know about all this but if the trans community knew about Class, they'd disown him in an instant
they know about me lol


MarKhan | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: MarKhan54
ID: MarKhan
IP: Logged

2,914 posts
If you bend your mind towards the challenge, the skill will follow in your hands
There is not much difference between man and woman in the first place and the differences that exist show up only in extreme cases and they will be gone with time and technology. Therefore trans men are men (but trans women aren't women) just doesn't hold any substance behind it and can be easily discarded.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Madman Mordo
IP: Logged

7,127 posts
emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Wow what a garbage piece.

The author could have just saved themselves the time with a quick "I dislike transwomen" sentence instead of trying to sugarcoat it up with feminist chatter to make themselves appear more academic.


FatherlyNick | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: FatherlyNick
PSN: FatherlyNick
Steam: FatherlyNick
ID: FatherlyNick
IP: Logged

8,601 posts
Hey.
I came here from b.net after a few Floods invited me. None of them post on either b.net nor here anymore, which is sad. I was still active on b.net until for some bizarre reason, b.net admins locked out people who have not played Destiny. Even if you wanted to post on the offtopic section. After that, I fully moved here and have not returned to b.net since.
Please come play Halo with me.
Transitions do not have a gender.

Man|_______<-Trans->_______|Woman


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

47,636 posts
Maybe explain how?
title of the article:
"Trans men are men (but transwomen are not women)"

a bold and unambiguous statement that would require substantial empirical evidence

quote from the article:
"For him to know that what he feels like is how being a woman feels, he has to have some idea of how being a woman feels. Given the overwhelming androcentrism of our culture, it is highly unlikely that he has any such idea. Most likely, what he thinks he knows about women he has learned from men. When a male says that he feels like a woman, he is most likely mistaken about what being a woman feels like, and so mistaken in making the comparison. "

ambiguous and speculative pitter-patter with little to no conviction

by using weasel terms like "highly unlikely" and "most likely," she reveals a lack of confidence in her own argumentation when, were she more sure of herself, would certainly use terms like "impossible" or "it is certain"—but she can't speak in those terms, because she knows what she's saying is bullshit; a self-inflicted bullet to the foot if i've ever seen one, and a good reason not to take the author's claims seriously, because she's tacitly conceding that her own argument is flatly incorrect in specific cases

it's one thing to say "i'm not so sure if transwomen can really know what it's like to be women, because we live in such an androcentric culture"—that would be fine, and i think that's a perfectly valid concern for an ignorant person to have, and a valid subject to read into and ask questions about—but to go beyond that and argue from a position of authority based on your personal incredulity (a logical fallacy), then you're just talking shit and wasting everybody's time

if that's too semantic for you, i refer you to solonoid's post, which contains pretty much everything i would have said and more

this was a very weak article and i think you only found it convincing because of confirmation bias
Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 05:24:32 PM by Verbatim


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

47,636 posts
Also I'm still watching evangilon I've just been busy
if you were only planning to post about it when you've finished it, i was thinking it might be more fun to actively discuss each episode as you go along, since it's a show that lends itself to in-depth discussion (especially later on)

if you'd rather not do it that way, that's fine, i just think that would be a good way to create more positive activity
Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 01:41:17 PM by Verbatim


E | Member
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: E
IP: Logged

96 posts
 
I'd probably be the first person to say that both sides of the trans train tracks aren't what they emulate, at least biologically. But for the sake of simplicity and fairness, I'd call either person by what they choose to address themselves as. That seems pretty simple to me and anything beyond that makes things needlessly complicated.

This article falls victim to what many various communities and movements are today in that they're folding into themselves and attacking each other. It's all one big victim show or an exercise in veiled hatred and insanity. It's a crock of shit and my life's timespan was wasted in reading that mental vomit.

Don't even get me started on the men can't understand women horseshit. I knew my significant other for seven years. I knew her head inside and out and vice versa. We knew what each other were thinking and regularily completed each other's sentences. We both knew what each other were feeling even if we were apart. And I knew her so god damn well that even eleven years after she died, I know exactly what she'd say about something if she were here with me today. I know how she'd feel.

It's a shit article and it's real simple. You can't have both. Trans men and women are considered what they emulate, or they don't. You can't selectively cut out one side.


Spagelo | Member
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Spagelo
IP: Logged

28 posts
Who was the fool that threw the basket in the pool?
It really shouldn't come as a surprise to me that Class herself is a transphobe, but it actually makes a lot of sense when I think about it.


 
ಠ_ಠ
| What're you looking at?
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Nuka
IP: Logged

17,135 posts
We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty
and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
"Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.."
I suppose we all thought that one way or another.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise to me that Class herself is a transphobe, but it actually makes a lot of sense when I think about it.
Oh man, you have no idea.


 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
I'm not a transphobe

what the fuck


Spagelo | Member
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Spagelo
IP: Logged

28 posts
Who was the fool that threw the basket in the pool?
It really shouldn't come as a surprise to me that Class herself is a transphobe, but it actually makes a lot of sense when I think about it.
Oh man, you have no idea.
Thinking back, wasn't she a massive transphobe before some people starting telling her that "[she herself was] trans"? I've read and inquired about and heard a lot of stories over time, but I never really traveled far beyond my TVC bubble.

But now, it all seems to be coming together.


 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
I am not transphobic

I just put cis girls on a pedestal

I am worthless. I want to die legit


 
ಠ_ಠ
| What're you looking at?
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Nuka
IP: Logged

17,135 posts
We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty
and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
"Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.."
I suppose we all thought that one way or another.
I'm not a transphobe

what the fuck
I'm sure I don't need to remind you of your extremely transphobic behavior before you more publicly came out and of all the drunk PMs you used to send me. It's self loathing. The primary reason why you didn't want to transition was because you thought trannies were disgusting and you didn't want to become a freak.

Well, I guess in some ways you were partially right.


 
ಠ_ಠ
| What're you looking at?
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Nuka
IP: Logged

17,135 posts
We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty
and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
"Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.."
I suppose we all thought that one way or another.
It really shouldn't come as a surprise to me that Class herself is a transphobe, but it actually makes a lot of sense when I think about it.
Oh man, you have no idea.
Thinking back, wasn't she a massive transphobe before some people starting telling her that "[she herself was] trans"? I've read and inquired about and heard a lot of stories over time, but I never really traveled far beyond my TVC bubble.

But now, it all seems to be coming together.
Yep. I think some of the drunk PMs I mentioned go back as far as 2015. Class was cartoonishy transphobic back then.


 
SecondClass
| Clover
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: ModernLocust
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

29,606 posts
https://discord.gg/XETdAyk

Open invitation to my island
I'm not a transphobe

what the fuck
I'm sure I don't need to remind you of your extremely transphobic behavior before you more publicly came out and of all the drunk PMs you used to send me. It's self loathing. The primary reason why you didn't want to transition was because you thought trannies were disgusting and you didn't want to become a freak.

Well, I guess in some ways you were partially right.
YEAH NUKA people can change. You are male brained for sure. No fucking empathy, no fucking sympathy.

YouTube

Watch this and get back to me sir


Spagelo | Member
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Spagelo
IP: Logged

28 posts
Who was the fool that threw the basket in the pool?
You are male brained for sure.
case In point, transphobe


 
ಠ_ಠ
| What're you looking at?
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Nuka
IP: Logged

17,135 posts
We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty
and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
"Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.."
I suppose we all thought that one way or another.
I find you to be a tragic character with a certain air of existential dread. It's a shame seeing how you've regressed.


Ian | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Gaara00444
PSN: TheFriskyIan
Steam: Gaara00444
ID: Gaara444
IP: Logged

8,741 posts
Signature goes here.
I'd say it's more misandrist. Class was never one to take kindly to "masculinity".

case In point, transphobe


Mmmmm Napalm | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL: Mmmmm Napalm
PSN: KeeblerElvesYaoi
Steam: Mmmmm Napalm
ID: Mmmmm Napalm
IP: Logged

5,986 posts
No disintegrations!
I'm not a transphobe

what the fuck
I'm sure I don't need to remind you of your extremely transphobic behavior before you more publicly came out and of all the drunk PMs you used to send me. It's self loathing. The primary reason why you didn't want to transition was because you thought trannies were disgusting and you didn't want to become a freak.

Well, I guess in some ways you were partially right.
YEAH NUKA people can change. You are male brained for sure. No fucking empathy, no fucking sympathy.

YouTube

Watch this and get back to me sir

"watch a musical number from this shitty cartoon"

lol
Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:42:14 PM by Mmmmm Napalm