Super Saiyan 3 was the biggest mistake of Dragon Ball.

Elai · November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM

YouTube

Forgive the somewhat dorky commentator. Any Dragon Ball YouTuber is like that.

Anyways, the topic is something I find fairly interesting. I'll sumarise if you don't feel like watching, as well as putting my 2 cents in at the end.

Before the days of Goku spoon-feeding Majin Buu (and the readers) an understanding of Super Saiyan transformations, we had the "Super Saiyan Grade" levels. Which went as follows:

Super Saiyan - Goku achieved this after Krillin was killed by Freeza on Namek. Your average transformation, anyone who has achieved a Super Saiyan state went through this form first.

Super Saiyan Grade 2 - Super Vegeta. He and Trunks achieved this form after training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and used it against Semi-Perfect Cell. Keeps the energy inside the user and increases muscle mass and strength, but sacrifices speed a manageable amount.

Super Saiyan Grade 3 - Super Trunks. Trunks uses this form against Perfect Cell after Vegeta gets knocked out. Vastly increases strength while greatly reducing speed.

Super Saiyan Grade 4 - Also called "Full-power Super Saiyan." The strain of Super Saiyan is completely negated because the user is so comfortable in the form. Goku and Gohan achieved this form after their time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

And finally,

Super Saiyan Grade 5 - A fully fleshed-out form of Super Saiyan. Capable of greater strength than any grade before without sacrificing speed. The ultimate fighting transformation a Saiyan can achieve. Gohan achieved this form while fighting Cell as Android 16 was killed.

And that was [supposed to be] it. Dragon Ball was meant to end after the Cell Saga. But due to demand, the series continued to [arguably] its worst arc. The regular Super Saiyan transformation was reduced to a child's plaything, Super Saiyan Grade 5 was barely touched on in lieu of Super Saiyan 3, an admittedly cool transformation that solidifies my main complaint with Dragon Ball after the Buu Saga: it's not about martial arts or fighting anymore. It's about transformations and power levels. Not only is Super Saiyan 3 arguably the worst Super Saiyan transformation, in terms of combat viability, it also opens up the door to all sorts of weirdo transformations designs and concepts.

It's kind of what Akira is doing in Super now, where he has stated there will no longer be any use for anything after the original Super Saiyan (including Blue). This is a shame. Super Saiyan 2 should be that form. Not only did he pick the worst Super Saiyan form to base Blue off of (in both design and power multipliers), it's also just a lazy recolour. I really enjoyed Resurrection F's fight scene before Blue showed up. Goku's Saiyan Beyond God form against Final Form Freeza was awesome -- it was the first time I've ever thought base form Goku was cool looking. If anything, I'd be okay with the Saiyan Beyond God form to be the only form they use in Super now. Super Saiyan Blue is incredibly stupid, but that's another conversation.

Anyways, I've been watching a few videos on Super and the levels of power these characters are capable of just ridiculous. Universal strength? Goku was, at best, a multi-Solar System buster in the Buu Saga. Now he shatters the fabric of the universe. Whatever.

Anyways, I thought it was cool to go back to a time before we thought of them as Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3.

Korra · November 29, 2016, 08:35:14 PM

I mean, yeah it's completely useless in a prolonged fight but the transformation was awesome!

Naru · November 29, 2016, 08:38:48 PM

Elai · November 29, 2016, 08:39:09 PM

Quote from: Yang on November 29, 2016, 08:35:14 PM

I mean, yeah it's completely useless in a prolonged fight but the transformation was awesome!

It's essentially Super Saiyan 2's Super Trunks transformation. It increase the strength of the user by 400, but instead of stunting the user's speed, it strains the body more than any other transformation (save Kaioken or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, debateably.) You'd be better off growing accustomed to the Super Saiyan 2 transformation like Goku and Gohan did to the Super Saiyan transformation in the Cell Saga.

Verbatim · November 29, 2016, 08:40:01 PM

I'd go further back than that.

Verbatim · November 29, 2016, 08:45:46 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:39:09 PM

Quote from: Yang on November 29, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
I mean, yeah it's completely useless in a prolonged fight but the transformation was awesome!
It's essentially Super Saiyan 2's Super Trunks transformation. It increase the strength of the user by 400, but instead of stunting the user's speed, it strains the body more than any other transformation (save Kaioken or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, debateably.) You'd be better off growing accustomed to the Super Saiyan 2 transformation like Goku and Gohan did to the Super Saiyan transformation in the Cell Saga.

i think she's just talking about the scene itself, when he first does it

the really shitty, overwrought one with the bad dialogue and the embarrassing, prolonged, constipated screaming

Elai · November 29, 2016, 08:48:01 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on November 29, 2016, 08:45:46 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:39:09 PM
Quote from: Yang on November 29, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
I mean, yeah it's completely useless in a prolonged fight but the transformation was awesome!
It's essentially Super Saiyan 2's Super Trunks transformation. It increase the strength of the user by 400, but instead of stunting the user's speed, it strains the body more than any other transformation (save Kaioken or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, debateably.) You'd be better off growing accustomed to the Super Saiyan 2 transformation like Goku and Gohan did to the Super Saiyan transformation in the Cell Saga.
i think she's just talking about the scene itself, when he first does it

the really shitty, overwrought one with the bad dialogue and the embarrassing, prolonged, constipated screaming

I know what she's talking about. I posted the exact same scene in my OP. She just gave me an opportunity to elaborate on my Super Saiyan 3 thoughts.

Ian · November 29, 2016, 08:52:02 PM

Dude, it's been that way since the last season of the original Dragon Ball, Kaio-ken was literally just a Proto-Super Saiyan.

Quote

Super Saiyan Grade 5 was barely touched on in lieu of Super Saiyan 3, an admittedly cool transformation that solidifies my main complaint with Dragon Ball after the Buu Saga: it's not about martial arts or fighting anymore. It's about transformations and power levels.

Doctor Doom · November 29, 2016, 08:56:06 PM

There should only have ever been one Super Saiyan form. Everything after just cheapened the first time it was shown.

Elai · November 29, 2016, 08:56:44 PM

Quote from: Ian on November 29, 2016, 08:52:02 PM

Dude, it's been that way since the last season of the original Dragon Ball, Kaio-ken was literally just a Proto-Super Saiyan.

Quote
Super Saiyan Grade 5 was barely touched on in lieu of Super Saiyan 3, an admittedly cool transformation that solidifies my main complaint with Dragon Ball after the Buu Saga: it's not about martial arts or fighting anymore. It's about transformations and power levels.

Not to the extent it's been since the Buu Saga.

The fight scene between Cell and Full-Power Goku is the most technically proficient and well-choreographed fight in the entire show, and Goku never transformed. The cool-factor of that fight wasn't due to watching a new form of Super Saiyan transform, it was just a good fight.

Piccolo had an amazing fight against 17 without a transformation. Majin Vegeta versus Goku, even (which is Buu saga, but didn't introduce new transformations).

I'm not saying they placed no emphasis on transformations before the Buu Arc, I'm just saying there was less. Fuck, even Super has it's problems with this. Super Saiyan God, Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rose. It's ridiculous.

Doctor Doom · November 29, 2016, 08:57:21 PM

Also Akira Toriyama would have had to come up with better ways to write himself out of whatever corner he got himself into.

Elai · November 29, 2016, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 08:56:06 PM

There should only have ever been one Super Saiyan form. Everything after just cheapened the first time it was shown.

Well that was the idea. Super Saiyan 2 wasn't meant to be Super Saiyan 2, it was meant to be the fully-powered Super Saiyan form. They were the same thing.

I just wish they'd stuck with it.

Doctor Doom · November 29, 2016, 09:00:12 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on November 29, 2016, 08:45:46 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:39:09 PM
Quote from: Yang on November 29, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
I mean, yeah it's completely useless in a prolonged fight but the transformation was awesome!
It's essentially Super Saiyan 2's Super Trunks transformation. It increase the strength of the user by 400, but instead of stunting the user's speed, it strains the body more than any other transformation (save Kaioken or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, debateably.) You'd be better off growing accustomed to the Super Saiyan 2 transformation like Goku and Gohan did to the Super Saiyan transformation in the Cell Saga.
i think she's just talking about the scene itself, when he first does it

the really shitty, overwrought one with the bad dialogue and the embarrassing, prolonged, constipated screaming

Sean Schemmel passed out after that scream.

Elai · November 29, 2016, 09:02:07 PM

Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 09:00:12 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on November 29, 2016, 08:45:46 PM
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:39:09 PM
Quote from: Yang on November 29, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
I mean, yeah it's completely useless in a prolonged fight but the transformation was awesome!
It's essentially Super Saiyan 2's Super Trunks transformation. It increase the strength of the user by 400, but instead of stunting the user's speed, it strains the body more than any other transformation (save Kaioken or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, debateably.) You'd be better off growing accustomed to the Super Saiyan 2 transformation like Goku and Gohan did to the Super Saiyan transformation in the Cell Saga.
i think she's just talking about the scene itself, when he first does it

the really shitty, overwrought one with the bad dialogue and the embarrassing, prolonged, constipated screaming

Sean Schemmel passed out after that scream.

Pretty sure that's a fan rumour. Like the one about Toriyama saying Gohan was the strongest unfused character in DBZ (even thought it's true.)

Verbatim · November 29, 2016, 09:02:10 PM

Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 09:00:12 PM

Sean Schemmel passed out after that scream.

according to stonematt's youtube comment you are incorrect sir

Doctor Doom · November 29, 2016, 09:02:59 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on November 29, 2016, 09:02:10 PM

Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 09:00:12 PM
Sean Schemmel passed out after that scream.
according to stonematt's youtube comment you are incorrect sir

According to myself fuck stonematt.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · November 29, 2016, 09:05:27 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Elai · November 29, 2016, 09:07:15 PM

Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on November 29, 2016, 09:05:27 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Any Dragon Ball YouTuber is like that.
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber is
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber
Why is this a thing and why does it make me want to gouge my own eyes out so much

it's just folks who primarily make videos on DB. No different than a sports or politics channel.

Doctor Doom · November 29, 2016, 09:13:14 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 09:07:15 PM

Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on November 29, 2016, 09:05:27 PM
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Any Dragon Ball YouTuber is like that.
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber is
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber
Why is this a thing and why does it make me want to gouge my own eyes out so much

it's just folks who primarily make videos on DB. No different than a sports or politics channel.

One would think there would only be so much that could be said about a series that ended decades ago.

Then again I guess it's easy to keep people speculating when your writing is full of plot holes and inconsistency.

Elai · November 29, 2016, 09:14:40 PM

Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 09:13:14 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on November 29, 2016, 09:05:27 PM
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Any Dragon Ball YouTuber is like that.
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber is
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber
Why is this a thing and why does it make me want to gouge my own eyes out so much

it's just folks who primarily make videos on DB. No different than a sports or politics channel.

One would think there would only be so much that could be said about a series that ended decades ago.

Then again I guess it's easy to keep people speculating when your writing is full of plot holes and inconsistency.

super is still airing so there's plenty to talk about. obviously a huge spike when the new movies came out.

not to mention the multiple mmos based on the series.

Doctor Doom · November 29, 2016, 09:18:29 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 09:14:40 PM

Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 09:13:14 PM
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on November 29, 2016, 09:05:27 PM
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Any Dragon Ball YouTuber is like that.
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber is
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber
Why is this a thing and why does it make me want to gouge my own eyes out so much

it's just folks who primarily make videos on DB. No different than a sports or politics channel.

One would think there would only be so much that could be said about a series that ended decades ago.

Then again I guess it's easy to keep people speculating when your writing is full of plot holes and inconsistency.

super is still airing so there's plenty to talk about. obviously a huge spike when the new movies came out.

not to mention the multiple mmos based on the series.

I meant before Super. Back when every game just retold everything from Raditz to Buu and maybe some movie villains.

Speaking of which anyone else notice how much better the movie villains were? Cooler kicks ass.

Elai · November 29, 2016, 09:20:39 PM

Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 09:18:29 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 09:14:40 PM
Quote from: DIO on November 29, 2016, 09:13:14 PM
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on November 29, 2016, 09:05:27 PM
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Any Dragon Ball YouTuber is like that.
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber is
Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Dragon Ball YouTuber
Why is this a thing and why does it make me want to gouge my own eyes out so much

it's just folks who primarily make videos on DB. No different than a sports or politics channel.

One would think there would only be so much that could be said about a series that ended decades ago.

Then again I guess it's easy to keep people speculating when your writing is full of plot holes and inconsistency.

super is still airing so there's plenty to talk about. obviously a huge spike when the new movies came out.

not to mention the multiple mmos based on the series.

I meant before Super. Back when every game just retold everything from Raditz to Buu and maybe some movie villains.

Speaking of which anyone else notice how much better the movie villains were? Cooler kicks ass.

before super there weren't really dragon ball youtubers. not profitable ones, anyway.

but yeah, movie villains were cool. cooler is one of my favourites too.

Doctor Doom · November 29, 2016, 09:23:43 PM

Everyone but Broly.

Fuck Broly.

Solonoid · November 29, 2016, 09:29:47 PM

You're close, but not quite right.

There was Super Saiyan, and then an evolution of that, yes, keeping energy within the body.
This was always moreso an application of the Super Saiyan power than another level of the transformation.

The grades always described different applications of the first level.

There were only ever two forms: Super Saiyan, and Ascended Saiyan, naturally called Grade 5 following the previous system, but very quickly corrected to Ascended Saiyan in the official lore when Toriyama decided to keep going, alhough not being called Super Saiyan 2 until the Buu saga.

What I'm trying to say, is that with the exception of Grade 5, all of these "grades" were always, since the beginning, considered variances of the same form, and Grade 5 has always been considered a different form separate, or ascended beyond the first.

Solonoid · November 29, 2016, 09:35:13 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on November 29, 2016, 08:45:46 PM

Quote from: Future Warrior on November 29, 2016, 08:39:09 PM
Quote from: Yang on November 29, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
I mean, yeah it's completely useless in a prolonged fight but the transformation was awesome!
It's essentially Super Saiyan 2's Super Trunks transformation. It increase the strength of the user by 400, but instead of stunting the user's speed, it strains the body more than any other transformation (save Kaioken or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, debateably.) You'd be better off growing accustomed to the Super Saiyan 2 transformation like Goku and Gohan did to the Super Saiyan transformation in the Cell Saga.
i think she's just talking about the scene itself, when he first does it

the really shitty, overwrought one with the bad dialogue and the embarrassing, prolonged, constipated screaming

So the dialogue is uninspired. That doesn't discredit the awesome power of the shaking earth, tumultuous oceans, exploding electronics, and shattering buildings.

Luciana · November 29, 2016, 09:57:38 PM

Dragon Ball got shit after the Cell Saga anyway

Yes, SS3 was an abomination, but so was them nerfing Gohan so hard because fans cried about Goku

Edit: On that note, I thought it was cool that it looked like Trunks was crossing into Legendary Super Saiyan (Broly) territory when powering up against Cell.

Korra · November 29, 2016, 10:32:18 PM

Super Saiyan 2 is the best transformation tbh

challengerX · November 30, 2016, 06:47:03 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Spartan · November 30, 2016, 07:07:10 AM

The Buu saga was a meme arc when it came to power scaling anyway

"Guess we're both Super Saiyan 2 now"
"I'm evil SSJ2 now because you're slightly stronger"
"Oops SSJ3"
"Fusion"
"Oh Gohan is more powerful than SSJ3 now because he got danced around for a day"
"Better fusion now"

This is why I want Super to stick with Super Saiyan Blue

Dietrich Six · November 30, 2016, 07:25:48 AM

I don't know what you people are on, but when Goku transformed for the first time I got chills. Shit still hypes me up.

I agree about the different transformations though. It seems like they don't need much training or conditioning anymore in order to ascend to the next level.

Ssj1 required months of high gravity training and conditioning, Goku nearly dying, and half of his friends dying in order to ascend. Vegeta was in a literal life or death training exercise after intense conditioning in order to ascend.

Queue years of training in the hyperbolic time chamber in high gravity in order to get used to ssj1, and then another life or death situation in order to ascend that.

After that it was basically "lel I'm stronker now."

A big part of dbz which fell off subsequently is that it's no longer a long, drawn out emotional struggle to achieve greatness. Literally the best part of the show.

They should have ended at ssj1 and achieved greater power through training and conditioning, not this world ending long hair no eyebrow having mufucka or high school girl dyeing her hair to be a special snowflake shit.

Ssj1 was supposed to be fucking legendary, and now children are able to achieve it without a catalyst.