Spoiler Star Wars: The Last Jedi

 
Verbatim
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I'm not gonna mark my spoilers, don't read this post if you haven't seen the movie.

The most common complaints seem to be the following:
- High highs and low lows in terms of "moments"
- Too many jokes
- Pacing
- Luke's actions and overall behavior

I think most of us can agree that the highest of highs was probably Snoke's throne room scene with Rey and Kylo Ren. For me, this was one of the coolest scenes in the entire series, and it reminded me of some of the best moments from Return of the Jedi (my favorite OT film).

A lot of people seem upset that Snoke died, but as Napalm and a couple others have been saying, I personally enjoyed it as a big establisihng character moment for Kylo Ren, because Snoke himself was never that interesting in the first place, and there's no reason to assume that his lore won't be expounded upon in the future anyway.

Adam Driver is FUCKING AWESOME, and I would say that he made the movie for me, but there was a lot more that I really appreciated, too. Adam's acting is extremely un-Star Wars-like, but in a very good way. The way he just glowers at everyone, and how he's always shouting angrily, is really great. Listen to the way he shouts "You're still holding on, LET GO" at Rey during that scene. Nobody in Star Wars talks like that. It makes him stand out in a really cool way, and I honestly believe that, next to Mark Hamill, Adam Driver is the best talent in the cast. Loved every minute of his scenes, best character in the NT.

Speaking of Mark Hamill, Luke Skywalker is an awesome character now. Hated him in ANH. Didn't like him much in Empire. Thought he was redeemed in RotJ. But Rian Johnson wrote Luke Skywalker in a way that turns him from "bad-turned-quality character" into a character that actually resonates with me at a core level. He had so many great moments, with the Kylo Ren backstory sequences (where you get to hear the story three times in three different perspectives) and his final sequence, which was the most satisfying thing to watch ever.

The moments where I was able to predict what was about to happen were not hampered by their predictability. They were enhanced by them, because the things I was predicting were the things that I really wanted to see happen. When Luke is dueling Kylo, I knew every step of the way what was about to happen. But somehow, it worked. Something about the pathos of this movie was able to make it work for me, and I might need to see it a second time to figure out how or why.

The only two things I had issues with were Captain Phasma getting the short end of the stick once again in terms of character priority, and then proceeding to get Darth Maul'd. I was hoping to see a little bit more devepment from her, but they decided to use her as a character-establishing tool for Finn instead. Unfortunately, their scene together was much less powerful than the one between Snoke and Kylo Ren.

The second thing is porgs. I really hate the porgs, and the less they were in the movie, the better it was. Thankfully, they weren't in there very often, but when they got in your face, they REALLY got in your face.

Rey was fine, too, I guess. I always liked her. I'm kind of okay with her being reduced to a side character as long as she gets more moments in the next episode.

For me, this was Earned Pathos: The Movie. My sister was watching it with me, too, and she probably cares about this franchise even less than I do, but she said she cried about ten times during the movie.

I probably have more to say that I've forgotten, but those are my current thoughts. In order to understand why this is currently my favorite Star Wars movie requires me to talk about every other Star Wars movie to explain why they're not as good, and that's not something I'm prepared to do right now.


 
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It's exactly what it is. Luke changed from simple farm boy to a Jedi Master with morals and ideals, and he throws them the fuck away over a hilariously poorly written mistake.
luke never became a jedi master in the OT, just a very skilled knight imo

also his morals and ideals were shown to be questionable at best in rotj, which is symbolized by his black outfit, green lightsaber, and the fact that he speaks almost like vader does at jabba the hutt: "you can either profit by this, or be destroyed. i warn you not to underestimate my powers," etc.

not to mention, he's visibly conflicted when darth sidious is goading him to join the dark side and shit

doesn't seem like the most morally-upstanding guy to me

so what was poorly-written about it

"i didn't want it to happen that way" is not a reason
Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 09:10:59 PM by Verbatim


 
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OH I FORGOT

i really really really liked that they acknowledged the prequels in this movie

because you know, they're the best films after all


 
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If he's so powerful in the force, he should've been able to sense that he was in danger.
you're making unnecessary assumptions

who's to say he's that powerful

maybe they're trying to show that kylo's will to deceive him is stronger than snoke's ability to see it coming

maybe snoke's thirst to watch his apprentice fulfill his destiny caused him to drop his guard momentarily

maybe something else

maybe having such boring OP villains in movies is really fucking lame and stupid and your opinion is bad


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luke never became a jedi master in the OT, just a very skilled knight imo

Fair enough, but he gets pretty close.

Quote
also his morals and ideals were shown to be questionable at best in rotj, which is symbolized by his black outfit, green lightsaber, and the fact that he speaks almost like vader does at jabba the hutt: "you can either profit by this, or be destroyed. i warn you not to underestimate my powers," etc.

What does the black outfit or green light saber have to do with anything? Also he bargained with Jabba, several times. Vader would have never done that.

Quote
not to mention, he's visibly conflicted with darth sidious is goading him to join the dark side

It's not a blight on his morality for showing care in his friends and family, nor is it a blight when he sticks by his ideals through it all. Why do you think he threw away his lightsaber in front of the emperor? To show off? In the end he overcame that weakness. That was crucial moment that established two things, that Luke IS a morally-upstanding character, allowing himself to be defenseless in front of the most powerful force user in the galaxy to stand by his ideals; and that he wasn't all powerful, as shown when Sheev begins to go Mike Pence on him.

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so what was poorly-written about it

"i didn't want it to happen that way" is not a reason

What about it was believable for him as a character? As I mentioned several times, he had always attempted to diffuse/talk out a situation first. Going straight to "Better fucking kill my nephew" first is something Luke would have never done, especially after his success in bringing his father back to the light. Yes, he did ultimately not go through with it and realize it was a terrible thought process, but it was one that post-RoTJ/pre-TLJ Luke would have never done.


Ian | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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He could've have been everything you just mentioned, but that doesn't change the fact that he was established as the main leader of the bad guys and they killed him off half way through it all. So who's the main villain now? Don't say Kylo, as much as I love Kylo in this movie, he's still conflicted about being dark.

maybe having such boring OP villains in movies is really fucking lame and stupid and your opinion is bad


 
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What does the black outfit or green light saber have to do with anything? Also he bargained with Jabba, several times. Vader would have never done that.
by the time ANH and Empire were out, it had been firmly established that the good guys, jedi, used BLUE lightsabers, and the bad guys used RED lightsabers

then comes rotj and introduces GREEN, and what else could that mean other than moral ambivalence?

they don't just make these design choices for no reason, you know

as for the black outfit, darth vader's suit is black, which in itself is a symbolic parallel

that doesn't mean he's a straight-up grey jedi in rotj, or anything, but he very often shows signs that he's torn, and isn't afraid to use the force in perhaps less-than-scrupulous ways to get his ends meet

do not accuse me of looking "too deep" into this, because these are fairly surface level observations if you understand anything about how symbolism works

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It's not a blight on his morality for showing care in his friends and family, nor is it a blight when he sticks by his ideals through it all. Why do you think he threw away his lightsaber in front of the emperor? To show off? In the end he overcame that weakness. That was crucial moment that established two things, that Luke IS a morally-upstanding character, allowing himself to be defenseless in front of the most powerful force user in the galaxy to stand by his ideals; and that he wasn't all powerful, as shown when Sheev begins to go Mike Pence on him.
it shows that he's a morally-upstanding dude who ultimately saved the universe, yes

but that does NOT make him space jesus

he's still not a paragon of virtue, and was never stated or shown to be

Quote
What about it was believable for him as a character? As I mentioned several times, he had always attempted to diffuse/talk out a situation first. Going straight to "Better fucking kill my nephew" first is something Luke would have never done, especially after his success in bringing his father back to the light. Yes, he did ultimately not go through with it and realize it was a terrible thought process, but it was one that post-RoTJ/pre-TLJ Luke would have never done.
i just disagree

and even if you're right, i would still argue that this led to a FAR more interesting story

i think that sort of fleeting heat-of-the-moment type thinking is a very honest portrayal of how people tend to function when presented with some extremely scary and potentially threatening shit


 
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He could've have been everything you just mentioned, but that doesn't change the fact that he was established as the main leader of the bad guys and they killed him off half way through it all. So who's the main villain now? Don't say Kylo, as much as I love Kylo in this movie, he's still conflicted about being dark.
i don't really care, because i don't think the story necessarily needs a "main villain" at this point, or at least, not one who is irredeemably evil

that shit's boring to me, and if i ever want to see anything like that again, i'll just watch the older films

breaking these story conventions is part of what makes these new movies interesting to me


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by the time ANH and Empire were out, it had been firmly established that the good guys, jedi, used BLUE lightsabers, and the bad guys used RED lightsabers

then comes rotj and introduces GREEN, and what else could that mean other than moral ambivalence?

they don't just make these design choices for no reason, you know

as for the black outfit, darth vader's suit is black, which in itself is a symbolic parallel

that doesn't mean he's a straight-up grey jedi in rotj, or anything, but he very often shows signs that he's torn, and isn't afraid to use the force in perhaps less-than-scrupulous ways to get his ends meet

do not accuse me of looking "too deep" into this, because these are fairly surface level observations if you understand anything about how symbolism works

The black outfit might have been a good parallel, but the only reason he had a green lightsaber in RoTJ is because a blue lightsaber would've looked bad during during the fight in the Tatooine desert with the clear blue sky in the background.

http://www.forcematerial.com/home/2016/10/23/the-real-reason-luke-skywalker-has-a-green-lightsaber

"Remember - Luke had a green one because the effects sequence had it against a blue sky. That's as deep as these things tend to go." — Pablobot Hidalgonk (@pablohidalgo) October 18, 2016

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it shows that he's a morally-upstanding dude who ultimately saved the universe, yes

but that does NOT make him space jesus

he's still not a paragon of virtue, and was never stated or shown to be

EDIT: I see the response was in relation to my comment on his character. If what he did wasn't morally admirable then what is to you? Willing to die to redeem your father and not turn to the dark side seems like a paragon of virtue to me. He was written with these traits because he was written to be a role model.

Quote
i just disagree

and even if you're right, i would still argue that this led to a FAR more interesting story

i think that sort of fleeting heat-of-the-moment type thinking is a very honest portrayal of how people tend to function when presented with some extremely scary and potentially threatening shit

If episode VII and VIII existed in a vacuum like the OT did at the time they were written I would agree (and I would also agree with everything on Snoke), but these movies exist after the OT was released and everything was established. Why have a build up to Luke's character in RoTJ if you're just going to get rid of that? It was a build up that now leads to nothing and completely throws away everything Luke did throughout the OT that changed him.
Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 09:46:28 PM by Ian


 
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The black outfit might have been a good parallel, but the only reason he had a green lightsaber in RoTJ is because a blue lightsaber would've looked bad during during the fight in the Tatooine desert with the clear blue sky in the background.

http://www.forcematerial.com/home/2016/10/23/the-real-reason-luke-skywalker-has-a-green-lightsaber

"Remember - Luke had a green one because the effects sequence had it against a blue sky. That's as deep as these things tend to go." — Pablobot Hidalgonk (@pablohidalgo) October 18, 2016
i would suggest that you read that entire article

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EDIT: I see the response was in relation to my comment on his character. If what he did wasn't morally admirable then what is to you? Willing to die to redeem your father and not turn to the dark side seems like a paragon of virtue to me. He was written with these traits because he was written to be a role model.
no, i said that he's admirable

i'm just saying that he's not perfect

by "paragon of virtue," i'm talking about a guy who never does any wrong, and always does the rightest possible thing, no matter what, which is what you seem to think luke either is or should be

that's what i'm disagreeing with


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gurb
>Supposedly the most powerful dark force user in the galaxy
>Can't tell with dark side that your apprentice is about to kill you

If Snoke is that inept than Kylo isn't so beneath him in power that he would've put up with his shit.

he dies, but he doesn't die "like a nobody"; it all happens during a very plot-heavy scene where the only reason he died at all is because of his failure to account for his apprentice's true allegiances, which makes for an excellent establishing character moment for kylo

Where was it said Snoke was the most powerful. Everything in TFA and TLJ points to him just being some old, force-sensitive, rich bully.

It's like Verb said. He's reading the situation correctly, but he is interpreting it incorrectly.

Snoke dying is a great plot point and helps focus things on Kylo alone, who is a far more interesting character. I'll be just as satisfied reading about the origins of Snoke and his golden slippers in a tie-in novel.
Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 10:03:43 PM by Mmmmm Napalm


Ian | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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i would suggest that you read that entire article

Maybe I missed it before they mentioned the technical process of making RoTJ, but everything after is just about a possible symbolic explanation for the change in color that has nothing to do with Luke grey situation.

The explanation in that article is also bullshit because Vader never tried to severe the connection between him and Luke and was still calling for his son both at the end of ESB and during RoTJ.

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no, i said that he's admirable

i'm just saying that he's not perfect

by "paragon of virtue," i'm talking about a guy who never does any wrong, and always does the rightest possible thing, no matter what, which is what you seem to think luke either is or should be

that's what i'm disagreeing with

I never said he was perfect either, that was the whole point of getting shocked to death by Sheev. But just because he had two small moments of weakness (that he overcame) doesn't mean he's not virtuous or an ideal role model.


Ian | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Let's be honest, JJ Abrams was too much of a hack in VII to not write Snoke as the discount faux-Sheev.

Where was it said Snoke was the most powerful. Everything in TFA and TLJ points to him just being some old, force-sensitive, rich, bully.


 
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I never said he was perfect either, that was the whole point of getting shocked to death by Sheev. But just because he had two small moments of weakness (that he overcame) doesn't mean he's not virtuous or an ideal role model.
you can rest easy knowing that mark hamill himself seems to agree with you, as he didn't personally enjoy how his character was being portrayed in this movie either

for me personally, if luke were portrayed the safe way, it would've made for a worse film


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gurb
Let's be honest, JJ Abrams was too much of a hack in VII to not write Snoke as the discount faux-Sheev.

Where was it said Snoke was the most powerful. Everything in TFA and TLJ points to him just being some old, force-sensitive, rich, bully.

And so it fell to Rian to take things in a direction that was interesting. Which he did.

By bisecting Snoke.


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Spoiler
]Also, ships can just track other ships through hyperspace, which is all sorts of dumb
Spoiler
lmao

why

It was a contrived, unprecedented plot device that undermines the continuity of the series.

That said, apparently it wasn't some magic tracking device, but was a massive supercomputer calculating possible destinations the same way it was done in the OT multiple times, but a lot faster. So basically all the technobabble Finn and Rose spat out to justify its existence was just nonsense.


 
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Spoiler
]Also, ships can just track other ships through hyperspace, which is all sorts of dumb
Spoiler
lmao

why
It was a contrived, unprecedented plot device that undermines the continuity of the series.

That said, apparently it wasn't some magic tracking device, but was a massive supercomputer calculating possible destinations the same way it was done in the OT multiple times, but a lot faster. So basically all the technobabble Finn and Rose spat out to justify its existence was just nonsense.
contrived, maybe (welcome to star wars)

unprecedented, no, because rogue one foreshadowed it


 
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i'd say hyperspace being an instant jail-free card is probably the bigger contrivance, and technological advancements in a franchise taking place in a technologically advanced fantasy setting shouldn't feel all that contrived I.M.O.
Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 10:34:56 PM by Verbatim


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Spoiler
]Also, ships can just track other ships through hyperspace, which is all sorts of dumb
Spoiler
lmao

why
It was a contrived, unprecedented plot device that undermines the continuity of the series.

That said, apparently it wasn't some magic tracking device, but was a massive supercomputer calculating possible destinations the same way it was done in the OT multiple times, but a lot faster. So basically all the technobabble Finn and Rose spat out to justify its existence was just nonsense.
contrived, maybe (welcome to star wars)

unprecedented, no, because rogue one foreshadowed it

It's an obvious retcon; a throwaway line isn't a precedent for anything.

But I do rescind my complaint, knowing that the explanation in the movie was bullshit. And hopefully it's never used again.


 
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It's an obvious retcon; a throwaway line isn't a precedent for anything.

But I do rescind my complaint, knowing that the explanation in the movie was bullshit. And hopefully it's never used again.
it would be a retcon if star wars made it a point to say that technology is fixed and never improves


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*Blocks your hyperspace path*

i'd say hyperspace being an instant jail-free card is probably the bigger contrivance,


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i'd say hyperspace being an instant jail-free card is probably the bigger contrivance, and technological advancements in a franchise taking place in a technologically advanced fantasy setting shouldn't feel all that contrived I.M.O.

The advancement isn't the issue...one of the best things the prequels do that the OT failed at was showing how the galaxy developed around the stories and characters throughout the series via changing technology. It's sloppily introduced by Finn, who was apparently a janitor of all things  and some random engineer in the resistance, like it's a well-known technology, but nobody else on the ship even had an idea it was possible. That's a contrivance.

Tbh any time two characters just start babbling about an explanation for a sci fi plot device, I just roll my eyes at the lazy writing.


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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
Spoiler
More medium and two-shots would be nice though. Cinematography was pretty stale outside of the action sequences.
Spoiler
um, did you SEE the trippy mirror sequence

i walked out of this movie thinking that the cinematography was noticeably of a higher caliber than most other SW films
I wasn't giving that criticism in comparison to SW films (although OT does have a greater breadth of medium shots, usual for the time period), just the lazy trend recently of doing a wide shot for the scene's opening then a series of close-ups. I legit thought they would pan down at the end and show a bloodspot spreading through Luke's robe because they were only showing him through closeups.


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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
you can rest easy knowing that mark hamill himself seems to agree with you, as he didn't personally enjoy how his character was being portrayed in this movie either
But he also believes in Rian's ideas, and said that Luke had to change to fit those ideas. He hates what happened to the character, but understands that Luke isn't the main character anymore, his story's done.

Overall a pretty professional outlook imo


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Adam Driver really is my favorite part of the film. Dude's got range. I'm hoping he continues to be more than a just a villain.



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Now a lot of critics are saying TLJ is the best, even better than Empire.
I really can't understand how professional critics are saying this.
i can

i guess that's why you're not a professional critic
Appeal to authority. Interesting strategy for someone that thinks Phantom Menace is one of the best in the franchise.


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Jacob Potila was actually a Jacob Flotilla of lies.- WarTurkey
I don't like the fact that each director is being given a blank slate for their film without much direction of where the story is going. That would be fine in standalone films, but not a trilogy. It kind of sucks that whatever plot threads may have been set up in TFA could have been completely disregarded in this because the new director didn't agree with it.

I think when planning and making a trilogy you need to have some idea of where the whole story is going to go, giving each director the green light to do whatever they want just makes it into a bit of a jumbled mess that leaves the next director scrambling to pick up the pieces


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The lasers fired by snoke's flagship arcing through SPACE like artillery triggered me
Physics in SW have always been stupid. It didn't bother me.

What does bother me is the 7km Dreadnought having a measly 24 point defense cannons.

It's like they wanted it to get destroyed.
>nerd complaints

into the trash
Hard scifi is the only good scifi


 
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god this movie was great

i'm gonna make those threads i think


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I love you, son.