So my college is reprimanding me for "Islamaphobia"

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 10:21:39 AM

Quote from: Simseo on January 09, 2015, 10:18:24 AM

. . .

The only difference here is that you're speaking descriptively and I'm speaking prescriptively.

I'm not denying that this is the way things are. I just don't like it.

Aether · January 09, 2015, 10:22:32 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 10:04:54 AM

Quote from: DemonicChronic on January 09, 2015, 09:50:06 AM
Debatable, obviously.
Not really. The only way you can defend free will in the face of certain neuroscientific findings is to dilute the original, metaphysical meaning of the term. Free will, as referenced to unhindered agency--being the conscious author of one's own thoughts and desires--isn't really a defensible position anymore.

Essentially you treat the ego like an algorithm. The nature of which can be theoretically predicted with certainty. I'm not so sure I agree. I won't form any solid conclusive opinions on the matter as I can still recognize my own ignorance.

Quote

Of course we can take away the momentum of these beliefs, but only with significant effort.

We can take away the momentum of our own personal beliefs, correct? Yes it's very difficult, but the possibility remains. And so long as it remains, I know that a person could go against their expected and predictable nature. They probably won't. In fact, they almost certainly won't most of the time, but they still can. And the fact that they can proves to myself that the power that predicable nature had over them is not absolute. Otherwise the possibility to go against it would never arise.

Magos Domina · January 09, 2015, 11:18:26 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:28:26 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 09:22:27 AM
. . .
That's not my logic at all, but I see your confusion. I should've made my initial point clearer.

I know there are good Muslims and I've acknowledged their vital existence since I've been aware of these people--Malala, for example--and I'm not even coming close to saying all Muslims are violent. I mean, hell, the Old Testament is probably worse than the Qur'an, but we don't need to worry about Jews.

The point is that the representation of scripture in the actions of human beings is all that matters--not whether it's being twisted in some grammatical or semantic sense; it may well be--and given what we know lies within the Qur'an we can safely say that the actions of these--as you rightly say--twisted individuals were caused by their Islamic values.

If a Muslim robbed a liquor store and took a packet of bacon on his way out, I wouldn't attribute that to his Islamic beliefs because there's clearly no correlation there. And, in the same sense, I wouldn't attribute Jain suicide bombing to Jainism; these things just don't correspond. Islam, however, and violence correspond very well, even given the existence of the admirable moderates.

EDIT: I also disagree with the assertion that if they were Christian they would do the same. Christianity shed it's violence a long time ago (if we were living in the 15-16th Centuries, I'd be attacking Christianity, no doubt) but also because Christians face the same sort of satire nowadays as Muslims do, and yet Christian fundamentalism is nowhere near as substantial.

Christianity hasn't exactly shed its violence, you only need to look at Africa and see the horrible things done there in the name of God. True the Catholic Church doesn't go around beheading those who insult Jesus but nor would the Muslim Clerics in the ME if they were in the same position as Western religious leaders (not counting small radical baptist sects).

Point is, it's not Islam at fault, it's those who take their beliefs to the extreme whatever that belief may be.

Septy · January 09, 2015, 11:26:45 AM

You got called out for making ignorant statement and you're surprised they took action?

You're in public you shouldn't be acting like that.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 11:28:30 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 11:18:26 AM

Christianity hasn't exactly shed its violence, you only need to look at Africa and see the horrible things done there in the name of God.

I know, I was talking about exactly this with Icy a minute ago.

Quote

Point is, it's not Islam at fault, it's those who take their beliefs to the extreme whatever that belief may be.

My criticism is that the propositions in question lend themselves to such violence in the first place.

Aether · January 09, 2015, 11:28:37 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:45 AM

You're in public you shouldn't be acting like that.

Well actually a university is subject to private rules.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 11:29:49 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:45 AM

You got called out for making ignorant statement and you're surprised they took action?

Would you be saying the same thing had I put any other religion into that slot?

I've said exactly the same thing about religions previously--including Buddhism--and it's never been a problem. Primarily because nobody is that ridiculously sensitive to get butthurt about it, and also because what I'm saying isn't incorrect.

Septy · January 09, 2015, 11:32:30 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:29:49 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:45 AM
You got called out for making ignorant statement and you're surprised they took action?
Would you be saying the same thing had I put any other religion into that slot?

I've said exactly the same thing about religions previously--including Buddhism--and it's never been a problem. Primarily because nobody is that ridiculously sensitive to get butthurt about it, and also because what I'm saying isn't incorrect.

Everybody is different when it comes with religion, you still shouldn't be making jokes like that around other people.

Magos Domina · January 09, 2015, 11:33:35 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:29:49 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:45 AM
You got called out for making ignorant statement and you're surprised they took action?
Would you be saying the same thing had I put any other religion into that slot?

I've said exactly the same thing about religions previously--including Buddhism--and it's never been a problem. Primarily because nobody is that ridiculously sensitive to get butthurt about it, and also because what I'm saying isn't incorrect.

If you said something like that about Christianity and Judaism you would get the same treatment, more so if it was judaism.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 11:36:07 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 11:33:35 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:29:49 AM
Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:45 AM
You got called out for making ignorant statement and you're surprised they took action?
Would you be saying the same thing had I put any other religion into that slot?

I've said exactly the same thing about religions previously--including Buddhism--and it's never been a problem. Primarily because nobody is that ridiculously sensitive to get butthurt about it, and also because what I'm saying isn't incorrect.
If you said something like that about Christianity and Judaism you would get the same treatment, more so if it was judaism.

Which is exactly the point I'm making.

Ignore the fact that a specific Muslim girl got offended by a remark lacking any significant context, the fact that I should attend a SENSITIVITY CLASS for advancing such a proposition is retarded.

Fuck, I'd think it even more retarded if it were for a religion like Judaism or Buddhism.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 11:36:53 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:32:30 AM

jokes

Jesus Christ.

Re-read the fucking OP.

Magos Domina · January 09, 2015, 11:38:01 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:36:07 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 11:33:35 AM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:29:49 AM
Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:45 AM
You got called out for making ignorant statement and you're surprised they took action?
Would you be saying the same thing had I put any other religion into that slot?

I've said exactly the same thing about religions previously--including Buddhism--and it's never been a problem. Primarily because nobody is that ridiculously sensitive to get butthurt about it, and also because what I'm saying isn't incorrect.
If you said something like that about Christianity and Judaism you would get the same treatment, more so if it was judaism.
Which is exactly the point I'm making.

Ignore the fact that a specific Muslim girl got offended by a remark lacking any significant context, the fact that I should attend a SENSITIVITY CLASS for advancing such a proposition is retarded.

Fuck, I'd think it even more retarded if it were for a religion like Judaism or Buddhism.

Lol

Septy · January 09, 2015, 11:39:25 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:36:53 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:32:30 AM
jokes
Jesus Christ.

Re-read the fucking OP.

Quote

Islam, man, I tell ya. . . Makes good people do terrible things."

So this wasn't a joke and was a completely serious statement? Then you should be in the class.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 11:40:45 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:39:25 AM

So this wasn't a joke and was a completely serious statement? Then you should be in the class.

Are you seriously trying to say that religious beliefs don't motivate people to do horrible things?

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 11:41:15 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 11:38:01 AM

Lol

What's so funny?

Miia · January 09, 2015, 11:41:57 AM

Goodness. That sounds like something straight out of /r/tunblrinaction

Magos Domina · January 09, 2015, 11:42:28 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:41:15 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 11:38:01 AM
Lol
What's so funny?

Your reaction to being put into a "SENSITIVITY CLASS!!"

Septy · January 09, 2015, 11:43:28 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 11:40:45 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:39:25 AM
So this wasn't a joke and was a completely serious statement? Then you should be in the class.
Are you seriously trying to say that religious beliefs don't motivate people to do horrible things?

I think you need to realize that this is humanity were talking about. Anything motivates people to do bad things whether it's for money, love, or power. But what you did, singling out Islam was wrong.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 11:50:19 AM

Quote from: Septy on January 09, 2015, 11:43:28 AM

singling out Islam was wrong.

Except it wasn't, because I've already told you I'd say the same about any other religion given the right circumstances.

How could I not single out Islam in that conversation? I was talking about a fucking Islamic attack. I'm not going to censor my speech, when it's factually correct, for the sake of sparing some feelings. These people were twisted, horrible individuals no doubt, but that doesn't alter the values and beliefs which motivated them.

I don't hate all Muslims--fuck, I don't even hate Jihadists--and I certainly don't judge Muslims on the basis of their doctrine. But I do dislike religion and its claims, especially Islam and Catholicism, and I recognise that its doctrine can motivate people to do horrible, horrible things. I've already talked about neurocognitive imaging research which has shown how religious (or political) propositions are psychologically equivalent to facts, so it's not just that these groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda are acting as bug-lights for the world's psychopaths--the content of their beliefs is actively damaging.

For instance--Islam is totally off the hook when it comes to stem-cell research. Muslims don't believe the soul is gifted at conception, so they don't oppose so they're not responsible for it. But I don't think anybody would call Christians who oppose stem-cell research "twisted" in the traditional sense, they just have damaging beliefs.

The fact that I was talking about Islamic motivations corresponding to a specific atrocity doesn't mean I "single-out" Islam as I go through my daily life, nor does it mean I refuse to recognise other corrosive motivations like--as you say--power and money and the like.

R o c k e t · January 09, 2015, 12:09:02 PM

Quote from: Isara on January 09, 2015, 09:01:36 AM

If I were you then I'd be very, very, very.... Very... Very... Mad.

That's...........pretty mad >.>

o______________o · January 09, 2015, 01:37:32 PM

Meta, that was a very stupid and dangerous thing to do. If you had gotten that girl too angry, she would have exploded in the glorious name of Allah and killed you.

gats · January 09, 2015, 02:03:20 PM

That's silly. If you had called her a dirty paki muslim then fair enough lol but you made a statement which is your fair right to do so in which she overheard. It wasn't directly to her nor was it very offensive.

Urgh she's probably one of those twitter activists that thinks she can free Gaza by tweeting #BumfuckIsrael
Fucking faggot

CIS · January 09, 2015, 02:12:32 PM

Post pictures of the stupid shit that the instructor assigns you in the class.

SecondClass · January 09, 2015, 02:15:26 PM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 08:58:17 AM

Moral of the story, don't be intelligent.

Fixed.

This is total bullshit. "Sensitivity" classes are the worst. Our society is too sensitive as it is.

Mad Max · January 09, 2015, 02:18:01 PM

They're not wrong. Obviously you need some sensitivity training. The hallways of your school are not The Flood.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 02:19:39 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on January 09, 2015, 02:18:01 PM

They're not wrong. Obviously you need some sensitivity training. The hallways of your school are not The Flood.

Please tell me you aren't fucking serious.

Release · January 09, 2015, 02:23:21 PM

maybe this is her people's way of saying she likes you

Mad Max · January 09, 2015, 02:24:02 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 02:19:39 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on January 09, 2015, 02:18:01 PM
They're not wrong. Obviously you need some sensitivity training. The hallways of your school are not The Flood.
Please tell me you aren't fucking serious.

I'm mostly joking.

I don't think you need to take a class, maybe just a "bro, you probably shouldn't say those things. People will think you're a dick"

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 02:25:05 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on January 09, 2015, 02:24:02 PM

I'm mostly joking.

10/10

nearly put a hammer through my laptop and murdered my family

Hahahaha very funny Zonda · January 09, 2015, 02:25:35 PM

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