So my college is reprimanding me for "Islamaphobia"

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 09:17:34 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on January 09, 2015, 09:13:54 AM

I'm not sure I'd equate their religious beliefs with an act of cutting your nose off to spite your face. That is exceedingly retarded of them though.

Given the extent of Islamism in the Gaza Strip it's the best explanation.

But, fuck, this thread wasn't meant to be about Islam. It was meant to be about being forced to accommodate people's feelings--should've made that more clear >.>

aREALgod · January 09, 2015, 09:17:47 AM

Quote from: Nexus the Star Lord Guy on January 09, 2015, 09:10:25 AM

Kill her.

Nothing screams "tolerance" likes the tertiary blast wave of an exploding bomb

Kinder Graham · January 09, 2015, 09:18:35 AM

This is where I suggest you out of the blue convert to Islam and in the middle of this class, you pull out a bathroom rug, play some Islam shouting, and pray to Mecca

Mr. Psychologist · January 09, 2015, 09:19:49 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:17:34 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on January 09, 2015, 09:13:54 AM
I'm not sure I'd equate their religious beliefs with an act of cutting your nose off to spite your face. That is exceedingly retarded of them though.
Given the extent of Islamism in the Gaza Strip it's the best explanation.

But, fuck, this thread wasn't meant to be about Islam. It was meant to be about being forced to accommodate people's feelings--should've made that more clear >.>

Meta, you should know by now that there is a new internet law coined to state that in any thread where you are the OP, discussion of islam is inevitable.

But yeah, shit like sensitivity training/classes is wholly laughable.

Magos Domina · January 09, 2015, 09:22:27 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:06:02 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 09:03:57 AM
Because you blamed Islam, Islam didn't make those people shoot up the place, the shooters backwards mindset and the twisted extremist beliefs they have did.
No, it did.

They shot the place up while shouting allahu ackbar.

They were quite clearly Muslims and motivated by their beliefs, in the same way Christians have been motivated to bomb abortion clinics or block stem-cell research. Trying to say they aren't really Muslims is apologetics of the worst sort because, whatever you may think about the scripture and doctrines of Islam, they were still Muslims.

*face palm*

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They shot the place up while shouting allahu ackbar

Again, that's because of their own twisted extreme views, not because they were Muslim, if they were Christian they still would hold those views and if the paper drew a cartoon about Christianity they would do the same.

When did I say "they weren't really Muslim"? Because I didn't.

When Christian extremists shoot up an abortion clinic in the US or execute gays in Africa, it's not because of Christianity itself, it's because of the peoples extreme passion for it. By your logic ALL Muslims are violent fundamentalists and ALL Christians are homophobic murderers who shoot up abortion clinics.

aREALgod · January 09, 2015, 09:26:01 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 09:22:27 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:06:02 AM
Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 09:03:57 AM
Because you blamed Islam, Islam didn't make those people shoot up the place, the shooters backwards mindset and the twisted extremist beliefs they have did.
No, it did.

They shot the place up while shouting allahu ackbar.

They were quite clearly Muslims and motivated by their beliefs, in the same way Christians have been motivated to bomb abortion clinics or block stem-cell research. Trying to say they aren't really Muslims is apologetics of the worst sort because, whatever you may think about the scripture and doctrines of Islam, they were still Muslims.

*face palm*

Quote
They shot the place up while shouting allahu ackbar
Again, that's because of their own twisted extreme views, not because they were Muslim, if they were Christian they still would hold those views and if the paper drew a cartoon about Christianity they would do the same.

When did I say "they weren't really Muslim"? Because I didn't.

When Christian extremists shoot up an abortion clinic in the US or execute gays in Africa, it's not because of Christianity itself, it's because of the peoples extreme passion for it. By your logic ALL Muslims are violent fundamentalists and ALL Christians are homophobic murderers who shoot up abortion clinics.

And all Jews want shekels, right? The evil Zios the secret world order!

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 09:28:26 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 09:22:27 AM

. . .

That's not my logic at all, but I see your confusion. I should've made my initial point clearer.

I know there are good Muslims and I've acknowledged their vital existence since I've been aware of these people--Malala, for example--and I'm not even coming close to saying all Muslims are violent. I mean, hell, the Old Testament is probably worse than the Qur'an, but we don't need to worry about Jews.

The point is that the representation of scripture in the actions of human beings is all that matters--not whether it's being twisted in some grammatical or semantic sense; it may well be--and given what we know lies within the Qur'an we can safely say that the actions of these--as you rightly say--twisted individuals were caused by their Islamic values.

If a Muslim robbed a liquor store and took a packet of bacon on his way out, I wouldn't attribute that to his Islamic beliefs because there's clearly no correlation there. And, in the same sense, I wouldn't attribute Jain suicide bombing to Jainism; these things just don't correspond. Islam, however, and violence correspond very well, even given the existence of the admirable moderates.

EDIT: I also disagree with the assertion that if they were Christian they would do the same. Christianity shed it's violence a long time ago (if we were living in the 15-16th Centuries, I'd be attacking Christianity, no doubt) but also because Christians face the same sort of satire nowadays as Muslims do, and yet Christian fundamentalism is nowhere near as substantial.

Oh · January 09, 2015, 09:29:09 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:17:34 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on January 09, 2015, 09:13:54 AM
I'm not sure I'd equate their religious beliefs with an act of cutting your nose off to spite your face. That is exceedingly retarded of them though.
Given the extent of Islamism in the Gaza Strip it's the best explanation.

But, fuck, this thread wasn't meant to be about Islam. It was meant to be about being forced to accommodate people's feelings--should've made that more clear >.>

Surely that's because the college doesn't want people running round insulting everyone and anyone, leading to a pretty shitty college experience. If that was the case, nobody would want to go there, and they'd end up closing due to no students.

i am karjala takaisin · January 09, 2015, 09:30:34 AM

Quote

"sensitivity class"

why has nobody pointed out how hilarious this sounds

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 09:31:07 AM

Quote from: Simseo on January 09, 2015, 09:29:09 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:17:34 AM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on January 09, 2015, 09:13:54 AM
I'm not sure I'd equate their religious beliefs with an act of cutting your nose off to spite your face. That is exceedingly retarded of them though.
Given the extent of Islamism in the Gaza Strip it's the best explanation.

But, fuck, this thread wasn't meant to be about Islam. It was meant to be about being forced to accommodate people's feelings--should've made that more clear >.>
Surely that's because the college doesn't want people running round insulting everyone and anyone, leading to a pretty shitty college experience. If that was the case, nobody would want to go there, and they'd end up closing due to no students.

So the solution is to stifle free speech?

I'm not following her around calling her a dirty Jihadist. She was eavesdropping and didn't like something I said, so what? The same could happen with a dead baby joke, but it isn't my job to accommodate the particular sensitivities of others.

Aether · January 09, 2015, 09:40:15 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:06:02 AM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 09, 2015, 09:03:57 AM
Because you blamed Islam, Islam didn't make those people shoot up the place, the shooters backwards mindset and the twisted extremist beliefs they have did.
No, it did.

Well no it didn't exactly. Islam may influence a person to a very significant degree but, in the end, it still up to that person to decide what actions they will take and the life that they will lead. Or are you saying that religion supersedes free will?

Those men may have decided to shoot up 12 people in the name of Islam, but they didn't have to do it. They weren't forced to do it. Islam is a very influential religion but it only has as much power over people as they themselves give it. No set of beliefs is any different, really.

I mean, for a belief to have absolute objective power over someone like that. . . What would it have existed since the dawn of time? Is it a physical law? I just wouldn't make any sense to me. Sorry, I'm rambling.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 09:41:55 AM

Quote from: DemonicChronic on January 09, 2015, 09:40:15 AM

free will?

Doesn't exist.

But, in a sense, yes, religion does supersede our autonomy to act in certain manners. If you believe a certain proposition to be true (religious or not) then your belief will necessarily motivate you to act in a certain way.

rC · January 09, 2015, 09:43:06 AM

Good. Your comments sickened me, and even though I'm not a Muslim and I wasn't there when you made those despicable comments, I'm shaking with anger. I can't imagine the emotional trauma that you put that poor girl through. You should be expelled, at the very least.

Risay117 · January 09, 2015, 09:46:13 AM

Wow that is fuckimg stupid. I mean what you said could have been slightly insensitive but it does not warrant being called out.

Alternative Facts · January 09, 2015, 09:47:47 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:28:26 AM

Christianity shed it's violence a long time ago (if we were living in the 15-16th Centuries, I'd be attacking Christianity, no doubt) but also because Christians face the same sort of satire nowadays as Muslims do, and yet Christian fundamentalism is nowhere near as substantial.

I'd say Western Christianity that we see in developed nations.

Sub-Saharan Africa, which can be fairly Christian? Yeah, no - they're still extremely violent.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · January 09, 2015, 09:48:53 AM

Why don't you just not go? What could happen if you don't?

I'd be pretty riled up about that, too. The administration would never hear the end of it.

Aether · January 09, 2015, 09:50:06 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:41:55 AM

Quote from: DemonicChronic on January 09, 2015, 09:40:15 AM
free will?
Doesn't exist.

Debatable, obviously.

Quote

But, in a sense, yes, religion does supersede our autonomy to act in certain manners. If you believe a certain proposition to be true (religious or not) then your belief will necessarily motivate you to act in a certain way.

So you're telling me that something created by sentient life, something that we give power to, has more power than us now? That we can give beliefs momentum in our minds but we can't take it away?

That's a strange way to look at things. I'm sorry I just can't believe that something that would not even exist if we weren't here to conceive it has absolute power over us.

I won't go into this any further since it'll turn this into a debate on whether or not choice actually exists, and that isn't what your thread is about.

Oh · January 09, 2015, 09:51:25 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:31:07 AM

So the solution is to stifle free speech?

To a degree, yes. Your college is private property, and as such they can dictate to an extent what you are allowed to do and not allowed to do. That includes not overly offending other students.

They don't want students to come to college, only to get offended and upset, hence you're not allowed to go around offending and upsetting students, which means stifling free speech.

You're free to go to a public space, and say what you want. You're free to find a different college if you want.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:31:07 AM

I'm not following her around calling her a dirty Jihadist. She was eavesdropping and didn't like something I said, so what? The same could happen with a dead baby joke, but it isn't my job to accommodate the particular sensitivities of others.

That's not the point, you still offended her, and the college don't want that.
She shouldn't of been eavsdropping on you, but she did, and she was offended. I guess if you were in a private room, and she went out of her way to hear you, then you'd have stronger case. But if you were just walking to your next class then I doubt you'd have much to stand on, as you shouldn't really expect nobody to hear you then. People will hear you whether you like it or not in an open environment like that.
And a dead baby joke isn't the same as an offensive comment towards someones religon. Religon is treated differently.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: Ἀπόλλων on January 09, 2015, 09:47:47 AM

Yeah, no - they're still extremely violent.

I don't disagree. Especially in the Central African Republic.

Terrible, terrible violence.

Alternative Facts · January 09, 2015, 09:54:55 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:53:30 AM

Quote from: Ἀπόλλων on January 09, 2015, 09:47:47 AM
Yeah, no - they're still extremely violent.
I don't disagree. Especially in the Central African Republic.

Terrible, terrible violence.

So, you'd say that religion in these underdeveloped countries with shitty economies and rampant corruption is more violent than in democratic western nations?

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 09:57:05 AM

Quote from: Simseo on January 09, 2015, 09:51:25 AM

And a dead baby joke isn't the same as an offensive comment towards someones religon. Religon is treated differently.

Point being it shouldn't be. The comment is only offensive if you want to construe it that way. If anybody seriously claims to represent the idea that certain beliefs motivate certain kinds of behaviour--which is essentially what my propositions reduce to--then they shouldn't be in a college.

I'm not saying people should be allowed to go around offending people. I'm saying the whole idea of having to bend over backwards for people's feelings when I wasn't being intentionally offensive and then taking a sensitivity class is retarded. If she really felt it was that much of a problem (this girl is a cunt, by the way), then she could've spoken to me. Shit, even the faculty could've asked me to explain myself and I would've been able to then tell them I wasn't saying "All of Islam is barbaric and produces only barbaric people".

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 09:59:24 AM

Quote from: Ἀπόλλων on January 09, 2015, 09:54:55 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:53:30 AM
Quote from: Ἀπόλλων on January 09, 2015, 09:47:47 AM
Yeah, no - they're still extremely violent.
I don't disagree. Especially in the Central African Republic.

Terrible, terrible violence.
So, you'd say that religion in these underdeveloped countries with shitty economies and rampant corruption is more violent than in democratic western nations?

By virtue of the countries being more violent as a whole, then obviously. The point is that people's attitudes towards certain propositions (moral or not) isn't perfectly correlated with socioeconomic factors, and certain propositional content clearly lends itself to producing more violent. Also, the retarding effects of religion can also cause depressed socioeconomic factors.

I'm actually quite interested in the extent of Christianity in these groups. I know the likes of anti-Balaka is motivated also by mystical and animist beliefs, which are quite widespread in Africa, but I haven't seen the likes of that in any Islamic group.

Super Irish · January 09, 2015, 10:03:29 AM

Sensitivity class sounds like a lesser version of a "re-education" camp they have in NK...or a very very very watered down concentration camp.

I'd debate the fuck out of it to not go, it's total bullshit.

Super Irish · January 09, 2015, 10:03:51 AM

Total fuckup in the phone department, ignore.

Yu · January 09, 2015, 10:04:24 AM

Thats dumb.

More Than Mortal · January 09, 2015, 10:04:54 AM

Quote from: DemonicChronic on January 09, 2015, 09:50:06 AM

Debatable, obviously.

Not really. The only way you can defend free will in the face of certain neuroscientific findings is to dilute the original, metaphysical meaning of the term. Free will, as referenced to unhindered agency--being the conscious author of one's own thoughts and desires--isn't really a defensible position anymore.

Quote

So you're telling me that something created by sentient life, something that we give power to, has more power than us now? That we can give beliefs momentum in our minds but we can't take it away?

Of course we can take away the momentum of these beliefs, but only with significant effort. Neurocognitive imaging has shown that when people accept religious propositions they are having the same neuronal activity as when you accept even the most basic and truthful propositions like "water is wet".

But, essentially, it's like being mad at a psychopath when he murders somebody. He's just being a psychopath.

Alternative Facts · January 09, 2015, 10:09:10 AM

Typical Meta post: Joke mocking Islam turns into a 50+ response debate about the nature of religious extremism and free will.

All outside the Serious forum!

Mr. Psychologist · January 09, 2015, 10:11:41 AM

Quote from: Ἀπόλλων on January 09, 2015, 10:09:10 AM

Typical Meta post: Joke mocking Islam turns into a 50+ response debate about the nature of religious extremism and free will.

All outside the Serious forum!

A metapost a day keeps the shitposters at bay!

Alternative Facts · January 09, 2015, 10:12:25 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on January 09, 2015, 10:11:41 AM

Quote from: Ἀπόλλων on January 09, 2015, 10:09:10 AM
Typical Meta post: Joke mocking Islam turns into a 50+ response debate about the nature of religious extremism and free will.

All outside the Serious forum!

A metapost a day keeps the shitposters at bay!

The Metafection is slowly spreading into The Flood. We must begin quarantine procedures, or shitposting as we know it will cease to exist.

Oh · January 09, 2015, 10:18:24 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 09, 2015, 09:57:05 AM

Quote from: Simseo on January 09, 2015, 09:51:25 AM
And a dead baby joke isn't the same as an offensive comment towards someones religon. Religon is treated differently.
Point being it shouldn't be. The comment is only offensive if you want to construe it that way. If anybody seriously claims to represent the idea that certain beliefs motivate certain kinds of behaviour--which is essentially what my propositions reduce to--then they shouldn't be in a college.

I agree, but your college won't see it that way.
Like you said before, you weren't attacking the girl, so she shouldn't really be all that offended, but you did insult her religon, which she is going to take personally, again, she probably shouldn't, be she still did.
And I imagine most people in her situation would take it personally as well. I wouldn't say they would go out their way to be offended, they just are offended by the statement, as they don't actually think about it.

Unfortunately, you don't get much of a choice over that.

Quote

I'm not saying people should be allowed to go around offending people. I'm saying the whole idea of having to bend over backwards for people's feelings when I wasn't being intentionally offensive and then taking a sensitivity class is retarded. If she really felt it was that much of a problem (this girl is a cunt, by the way), then she could've spoken to me. Shit, even the faculty could've asked me to explain myself and I would've been able to then tell them I wasn't saying "All of Islam is barbaric and produces only barbaric people".

To be honest, people should be allowed to go around offending people, but they should expect to get punched in the face then if it's excessive. But again, the college don't want that, and it's their property, so they choose the rules.