Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:30:50 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:29:31 PM

newsflash, life is a hole you're thrown into and expected to dig yourself out of.

newsflash, that's why life is immoral and so is procreation

gee it's almost like i've been an anti-natalist for like 3 years longer than you

no antinatalist would have this "life sucks but w/e, you'd better accept it and not complain young man!" attitude

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:16:22 PM

Quote from: Luciana on June 10, 2017, 11:08:09 PM

The justification of "that's life" simply doesn't fly with me, really. The whole "that's just the way it is" is a terrible mindset if you ask me and just accepting it will always be like that is kinda shitty.

It's the same way Jim Crow laws worked. It's not that every single white was hating on the blacks and saw them as subhuman. A lot of people just had the mindset of "that's just the way it is" when seeing things like that. The fact it's sunken in as cultural norm is the part I vehemently disagree with.

I get what you're saying, and we should be striving to improve everyone's lives, but it is going to take an extroardinary amount of work to get there. We can't just sit back and say "This is how it should be, make it so." WE have to be the ones to make these changes, which is a very tall order in and of itself.

Personally, I know the shittier millennials find their lives, the more likely they are to adopt my anti-natalistic point of view, so I don't really care if things get better or not. Life is supposed to suck, anyway.

I'm speaking more from an idealistic standpoint, you're speaking more from a realistic one. I get that and like I said in my edit, partly agree with you. I also disagree with life having to suck. Honestly that view is most likely what makes millennials not want to work. "Life is going to be shit, I'm going to be working at a job I absolutely hate and not even make that much. Why should I even bother?" Hell I'm guilty of always thinking that. It's mostly the reason I'm going to college to hopefully get a career in something I don't hate (political science), along with voice acting as my "dream" job.

yeah, see, i've mostly given up on idealism in every sense. it's just too pointlessly depressing.

Every job. Really. Every job?

Every job.

consider the possibility that you're a very fortunate person

there is way too much fucking is-based mentality in the world

who gives a fuck about ises, shoulds are what matter

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:25:21 PM

Every job. Really. Every job?

Every job.

consider the possibility that you're a very fortunate person

Haven't you admitted to not wanting to work in physical labour?

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:29:31 PM

newsflash, life is a hole you're thrown into and expected to dig yourself out of.

or say this as if it's acceptable

i never said it was acceptable, either

it's not acceptable, that's why you should stop having kids

Quote from: Verbatim on June 10, 2017, 11:35:28 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:25:21 PM

Every job. Really. Every job?

Every job.

consider the possibility that you're a very fortunate person

Haven't you admitted to not wanting to work in physical labour?

just because i don't want to doesn't mean i haven't tried 20 or 30 times anyway

jobs aren't about what you want

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:36:04 PM

there is way too much fucking is-based mentality in the world

who gives a fuck about ises, shoulds are what matter

life should suck

life should be perfect

if life was perfect like nonexistence is (suffering not even being a concept) then it would be stupid to be an antinatalist

maybe in the sense that you're still breaking consent and forcing someone to exist, but existence would be preferable to nonexistence in that case anyway

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:37:05 PM

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:36:04 PM

there is way too much fucking is-based mentality in the world

who gives a fuck about ises, shoulds are what matter

life should suck

life should be perfect

if life was perfect like nonexistence is (suffering not even being a concept) then it would be stupid to be an antinatalist

maybe in the sense that you're still breaking consent and forcing someone to exist, but existence would be preferable to nonexistence in that case anyway

yeah, but life can't be perfect, so your "should" is irrelevant.

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:39:16 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:37:05 PM

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:36:04 PM

there is way too much fucking is-based mentality in the world

who gives a fuck about ises, shoulds are what matter

life should suck

life should be perfect

if life was perfect like nonexistence is (suffering not even being a concept) then it would be stupid to be an antinatalist

maybe in the sense that you're still breaking consent and forcing someone to exist, but existence would be preferable to nonexistence in that case anyway

yeah, but life can't be perfect, so your "should" is irrelevant.

Wrong, just because something can't happen doesn't mean it shouldn't. Life can't be perfect, which is why procreation is immoral. But the IS there doesn't fucking matter. Procreation shouldn't be immoral, because life should be perfect.

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:41:10 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:39:37 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 10, 2017, 11:38:29 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:36:30 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 10, 2017, 11:35:28 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:25:21 PM

Every job. Really. Every job?

Every job.

consider the possibility that you're a very fortunate person

Haven't you admitted to not wanting to work in physical labour?

just because i don't want to doesn't mean i haven't tried 20 or 30 times anyway

jobs aren't about what you want

define "tried"

i'm genuinely convinced you're all doing something wrong here. i've had no problem getting myself and my friends jobs. my first real job i literally just walked up to the guy and asked him if i could work for him.

it's almost like different regions have different job availabilities

yeah, sure, but they shouldn't be all that different. look further away from your area. i mean, i drive an hour to work for my job.

I have a job

and yeah, they are very different

I couldn't find shit for work when I was vacationing in MI, but there are tons of jobs here

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:42:44 PM

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:41:10 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:39:37 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 10, 2017, 11:38:29 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:36:30 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 10, 2017, 11:35:28 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:25:21 PM

Every job. Really. Every job?

Every job.

consider the possibility that you're a very fortunate person

Haven't you admitted to not wanting to work in physical labour?

just because i don't want to doesn't mean i haven't tried 20 or 30 times anyway

jobs aren't about what you want

define "tried"

i'm genuinely convinced you're all doing something wrong here. i've had no problem getting myself and my friends jobs. my first real job i literally just walked up to the guy and asked him if i could work for him.

it's almost like different regions have different job availabilities

yeah, sure, but they shouldn't be all that different. look further away from your area. i mean, i drive an hour to work for my job.

I have a job

and yeah, they are very different

I couldn't find shit for work when I was vacationing in MI, but there are tons of jobs here

i'm not talking about you.

Every job. Really. Every job?

I've worked a couple of retail jobs and a couple of food jobs (minimum wage and server's wage). My jobs options are minimum wage (40hr/wk) that will work around a college education (where I am), living wage that says will work around school (but won't actually, and fire people for not being able to work when they are demanded), and factory jobs that earn a manageable living (working 80+ hours a week and completely unable to attend college). I spent two years trying to find a non-minimum wage job that would be truly willing to work around my school schedule; instead, most offers were 30m away and would only offer minimum wage (with the possibility of getting a 10 cent pay raise every 6 months).

So yes. Really.

And I don't know, virtually every parent I talk to is always saying things like "I wish my son/daughter had gone into the work force for a couple years before going to school. They're not ready after grade 12." So. . .

I'm glad Canadian parents are so wonderful about it. My parents (and grandparents) told me I was going to college, without even the option of taking a year off after high school (and was chewed out when I brought up the idea).

But do you know why? Previous generations were told that a degree was required to live "well"-- and since every parent reasonably wants their kids to have a good life-- practically force them to attend college. We've grown up shown cartoons of janitors, construction workers, and other non-degree jobs as being miserable and sad people because, historically, they've worked harder for less than degree jobs. People from those generations haven't left us the option of just "forgoing" the degree. I couldn't get my Dad's job without a degree (that he doesn't have), I couldn't get my grandmother's job without a degree (that she doesn't have). Do you know what job I could get without a degree that some member of my family has? The construction job that my 70 year old grandfather has (who has multiple medical complications that arose from it).

Most of us aren't given the option by our parents or by the job market.

Hell, you could even sweeten the pot by helping with bill payments, and still pull in enough money to save for college.

That is the situation of a friend of mine who works as a manager at a shitty pizza joint. He pays $600 a month to live in his basement, as well as his car payment, phone bill, food, etc. Guess what he's trying to do right now? Move in to a shitty duplex with three other people to avoid the disappointment from his parents.

He's not even fucking going to college, he's attending a trade school for welding.

AND even if that doesn't work out, you can still manage to save while living on your own. It will suck, you'll probably work 2 jobs full-time or semi-full-time to speed it up, but that's just the hand that you've been dealt if that's the situation.

I will direct you to all of my friends who don't live at home, who are struggling to make rent at an apartment that they share with three other friends and work two jobs; my co-workers, who work two/three jobs and from 7am to 11pm just so they don't get behind on rent.

I'm glad you're in a place that you find acceptable, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. We shouldn't find it fair to be stuck here either, so fuck you for thinking I can't think that's bullshit. But will I work with it? It's all I have, so I guess I just have to. But we shouldn't be stuck with "I guess I have to"; we should have something better than that.

filing several applications over short periods of time whenever, AKA how it works for most people

i've submitted over 100 applications before i landed a single job

then maybe you are all doing something wrong. maybe filling applications out is the wrong way to go about it.

no offense i really couldn't care less about your personal anecdotes on this issue, it doesn't change the fact that jobs on the whole are far too difficult to get for the majority of young people out of high school—and the ones we do get are so miserable and soul-sucking they induce suicidal thoughts

most people can't just ask—you got EXTREMELY lucky and you need to understand this

my whole stance is built upon my completely opposite experience with the job markets than everyone i talk to online. i don't believe it. i got extremely lucky... 4 times? 5 times? over the span of a year? sorry, there's something you aren't telling me. maybe it's just the fact that guys in the physical labour line of work prefer the personal conversation to the written application, idk.

i've gotten my friends jobs literally no problem too so idk what's going on here. that's what i'm asking from you.

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:44:28 PM

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:42:30 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:40:15 PM

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:39:16 PM

Quote from: Kakashi555 on June 10, 2017, 11:37:05 PM

Quote from: Annie on June 10, 2017, 11:36:04 PM

there is way too much fucking is-based mentality in the world

who gives a fuck about ises, shoulds are what matter

life should suck

life should be perfect

if life was perfect like nonexistence is (suffering not even being a concept) then it would be stupid to be an antinatalist

maybe in the sense that you're still breaking consent and forcing someone to exist, but existence would be preferable to nonexistence in that case anyway

yeah, but life can't be perfect, so your "should" is irrelevant.

Wrong, just because something can't happen doesn't mean it shouldn't. Life can't be perfect, which is why procreation is immoral. But the IS there doesn't fucking matter. Procreation shouldn't be immoral, because life should be perfect.

"hey guys i'm an antinatalist"

you're saying stuff i agree with, dude. you just like the idea of living more than i do because you're more narcissistic. i'd rather not exist than exist in a perfect reality.

believe me, I'm far from narcissistic

if anything, I have more passion for the world than you - not even cultures or sociological stuff, but just pure media and storytelling. Even the base idea of a story from thousands of years ago, the debate over whether they were "lies" or not, is so interesting.

idk why people continue with this narcissist meme, maybe my persona from 2014 but not me in reality

and why wouldn't you want to exist in a perfect reality? It's just as perfect as nonexistence, but you also get to experience pleasure. So in a way, more perfect than nonexistence.

i'm not trying to insult you by saying you're a narcissist.

i don't want to exist in a perfect reality because it would be boring. human being cannot exist without suffering, so there's really no way of knowing what that would be like, and what i picture in my head is not worth it.