Rewatching Avatar

 
Jono
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
Iโ€™m about midway through season 2. How come Azula is a massive cunt?


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
โ€”Judge Aaron Satie
โ€”โ€”Carmen
Iโ€™m about midway through season 2. How come Azula is a massive cunt?
mate I will wreck you


 
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
Itโ€™s official, everyone in the Earth Kingdom and Azula are massive cunts


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I want to protect Jins smile


 
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
Iโ€™m on The Beach episode now

Azula met a guy and 5 seconds later she kissed him already. What a slut.
Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 04:39:26 PM by Jono


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You ain't throwing shade at Toph are you?

everyone in the Earth Kingdom and Azula are massive cunts


 
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
You ain't throwing shade at Toph are you?

everyone in the Earth Kingdom and Azula are massive cunts
Toph is literally the only cool Earth Bender while the rest of them are all complete dicks.


 
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azula being a cunt is justified given that she's a villain

what makes her a lame character is her tendency to be sue-ish


 
Jono
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
azula being a cunt is justified given that she's a villain

what makes her a lame character is her tendency to be sue-ish
Well Azula is terrible at flirting with guys so she's not great at everything


 
Jono
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
I finished the series, never finished the 2nd half of season 2 and never even watched season 3 as a kid. Wtf was I doing back then missing out?

What a beautiful fucking show man.


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ive been wanting to rewatch avatar

im still mad they removed it from netflix, like, 2 years ago

heeey since theyre gonna be doing a live action remake, they should bring it back


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
โ€”Judge Aaron Satie
โ€”โ€”Carmen
azula being a cunt is justified given that she's a villain

what makes her a lame character is her tendency to be sue-ish
How is she sue-ish at all when her character's goal, not the way she's written, is perfection? She's not perfect whatsoever, and that's fucking foreshadowed in the first episode she appears in:


("One hair out of place...")

As Jono mentioned, she's terribly lacking in all social skills (look at Zuko Alone for perfect example of how she uses fear, not genuine social maneuvering, to keep friends - Azula attempts a cartwheel and fails, Ty Lee attempts one and does an amazing one with a flourish at the end, Azula pushes her down and laughs), and lacks a basic grasp of how love, empathy, and paternal affection operate.

If you think she's perfect in any way, you severely missed the point of the writing of the character, and it makes me worry about how many other basic points in the show you also failed to grasp, out of laziness or pure lack of literary skill.
Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 03:19:00 PM by Carmen


 
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azula being a cunt is justified given that she's a villain

what makes her a lame character is her tendency to be sue-ish
How is she sue-ish at all when her character's goal, not the way she's written, is perfection? She's not perfect whatsoever, and that's fucking foreshadowed in the first episode she appears in:


("One hair out of place...")

As Jono mentioned, she's terribly lacking in all social skills (look at Zuko Alone for perfect example of how she uses fear, not genuine social maneuvering, to keep friends - Azula attempts a cartwheel and fails, Ty Lee attempts one and does an amazing one with a flourish at the end, Azula pushes her down and laughs), and lacks a basic grasp of how love, empathy, and paternal affection operate.

If you think she's perfect in any way, you severely missed the point of the writing of the character, and it makes me worry about how many other basic points in the show you also failed to grasp, out of laziness or pure lack of literary skill.
mary sues are not defined exclusively by perfection, so that shows how much you know right there

having just enough "flaws" to make you think she's not a sue actually makes her an even MORE egregious example of one, because it's a significantly less honest and cheap way to go about earning our sympathy, when she doesn't actually earn it at any point whatsoever

so in a way, you're rightโ€”she's worse than a sue, because the way she's written in the show, a villain sue played straight would actually make her marginally more likable as a character, because they're not trying to fool the less intelligent viewers into thinking she's sympathetic or relatable in any way that feels realistic or natural for the kind of personality she has

not better than having no sue tendencies at all, of course, but better than pretending that she has none, which is only part of what makes her the biggest blemish on the series (other than all the gross and unnecessary child romance)

grey delisle's VAing is to blame, too, given the overall ham-fistedness of her performanceโ€”if she's supposed to be this grounded, nuanced human character, the fact that no effort is made to make her sound like it either means that delisle wasn't given proper direction, she's an incompetent VA, or the character was never meant to be all that sympathetic to begin with, making all the attempts at humanizing her towards the end of the series seem jarring, hackneyed, and rushed (or, all of the above)

whatever the case, she's the worst and most insufferable fucking character in the entire show, because Mike and Bryan just couldn't agree, apparently, on whether to make azula more sympathetically human, or completely monstrousโ€”two concepts that don't mix at all, and never have, but they tried anyway (and, imo, utterly failed)
Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 11:17:19 AM by Verbatim


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
โ€”Judge Aaron Satie
โ€”โ€”Carmen
Bro that's all such bullshit, you have no idea what a mary sue is. Being perfect is a symptom of a mary sue and not the definition of one, sure, and that's because the true definition of a mary sue is an author insert. It's who the author wishes they could be, so they insert them into the story with no flaws and where everyone loves them, and where any flaws are good, reasonable flaws.

Azula is none of that, and HOLY SHIT did you seriously just insult GDL's master-class voice acting? She was the only one in the audition booth who actually voiced Azula with a clear, crisp delivery instead of the cliche evil villain hammy delivery. You're delusional.


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Who paid you to look at this?
Think I'll rewatch it myself sometime. It's been quite awhile but I remember really enjoying Avatar.


 
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the true definition of a mary sue is an author insert
nope

sometimes it's a manifestation of a writer's desire to create the coolest possible character that is impossible to dislike or even criticize because of how perfect she is, NOT as a person (because nobody is perfect), NOT as a character (because all good characters have flaws), but as a figment of the narrative

she checks all the prescriptive boxes that a "cool villain" is supposed to arbitrarily check, every single one, which has the effect of making her less cool because they tried too hard, and it shows

this is why it backfires so hard and so often when writers write like this, because they're so afraid of writing actual characters that they resort to leaning on prescriptive notions of what makes a character good, rather than taking risks and being creative

and that's bad
Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 12:50:37 PM by Verbatim


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
โ€”Judge Aaron Satie
โ€”โ€”Carmen
the true definition of a mary sue is an author insert
nope

sometimes it's a manifestation of a writer's desire to create the coolest possible character

which is why it backfires so hard and so often when writers write like this
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Fun fact: We're actually both right. There's no set definition for this type of character, though I've always heard it referred to as an author insert.



HOWEVER:



So my perception of what the character is isn't baseless, anyway.


 
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There's no set definition for this type of character,
i was always well-aware of this, and i thought that you were tooโ€”the whole idea is that i think my definition is better than yours, because it's much broader and captures the essence of the common tendency for writers to want to write "perfect" characters, whether it be a weak attempt at inserting a projection of themselves into the narrative, or a projection of their innate desire to write a perfect character that everyone will think is cool (which is where azula lies)

sues are characters born from insecurity, or a lack of confidence in one's own writing skills; that is the common denominator

you can like her all you want, but your overzealous appreciation of her has always come across to me as shallow fetishization more than anything else, which has always been extremely off-putting
Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 01:10:34 PM by Verbatim


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
โ€”Judge Aaron Satie
โ€”โ€”Carmen
There's no set definition for this type of character,
i was always well-aware of this, and i thought that you were tooโ€”the whole idea is that i think my definition is better than yours, because it's much broader and captures the essence of the common tendency for writers to want to write "perfect" characters, whether it be a weak attempt at inserting a projection of themselves into the narrative, or a projection of their innate desire to write a perfect character that everyone will think is cool (which is where azula lies)

you can like her all you want, but your overzealous appreciation comes across to me as shallow fetishization more than anything else, which has always been extremely off-putting
Azula is cool, though. And Verbatim, I'm overzealous about literally everything. Maybe someday you'll realize I don't fetishize Azula any more than I fetishize Britta Perry, Dale Cooper, Stanley Pines, Diana Lombard, Clover, Emily Kaldwin, Colonel Moore, or any other amazing character that I'm obsessed with. You only have the idea I do it with Azula because I did unironically have a crush on her as a child, and it was probably she who awoke the BDSM/sub tendencies in me and my desire to serve a strong person. Put those healthy mental developments the character helped me with aside, and she's no different than any other character I like for actual characterization reasons.
Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 01:14:45 PM by Carmen


 
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note that one part:
>her "flaws" are meant to be endearing

yes, i would say that azula's flaws are specifically crafted to endear you to her

normally, well-written character flaws are supposed to make you like the character a little bit less for the purpose of the narrative, or at the very least, put you in a mindset where you hope that they improve themselves over the course of the story

with villains it's tricky because you're not supposed to be on their side, but you're supposed to be able to understand WHY they are the way they areโ€”with zuko, you could do this; with azula, you could not

when zuko was still a villain, it was great because his flaws were sensible and real and gave you the impression that his character is redeemable in some wayโ€”maybe not RIGHT at the beginning when he first debuted, but each episode slowly unraveled his (genuinely sympathetic) backstory at a pace that made sense and allowed the viewers to digest his inner motives, on top of giving us a lot of enigmatic things to chew on, like the first blue spirit episode

with azula, it was clear from the beginning that she's irredeemable, which instantly makes her less interesting as a character because there's practically no room for development

azula's only flaws are designed to make you feel bad for her, when she simply doesn't deserve to be felt bad for, and i think expecting me as a viewer to start liking her all of a sudden just because she has this sad little trite backstory which wasn't made clear to us until VERY late into the series is a LOT to ask of me, because it's so contrived and unearned

obviously you don't have to like every character in a story, and writers shouldn't be expected to only write likable characters, that's the opposite of what i want

the problem is that azula is written to be a cool villain and she's not, she's WAY too strong to be an interesting threat and none of her "flaws" matter or make you feel like there's any possibility that she won't find a way out of everything, plus she's such an over-the-top cunt that i just get annoyed with her personality more than i've ever enjoyed any of her dumb one-liners
Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 01:43:59 PM by Verbatim


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
โ€”Judge Aaron Satie
โ€”โ€”Carmen
note that one part:
normally, well-written character flaws are supposed to make you like the character less for the purpose of the narrative, or at the very least, hope that they improve themselves over the course of the story
This isn't even true. Maybe if the character is a heel - which Azula isn't. You're never supposed to think she's a monster, by the way - she's a fucking child; it's clear from like 7 episodes into season 2 that she's only this way because her father was the only one in her life who cared about her (in a utilitarian way, sure, but how is an 11 year old supposed to know that?) She was never a candidate for Iroh's tutelage or even for her mother's care and support. Again, all of this didn't come from some late season 3 episode - it came nearly as soon as her character was introduced.

But going back to this "flaws are supposed to make us dislike the character" nonsense, how much can you possibly miss the idea of likeable flaws? That's not bad writing - it's good writing.

YouTube
Britta Perry is the worst ever, and constantly says dumb things that come from the heart. Still, her flaws are numerous and people are quick to point that out. Does that mean that we, the viewers, are turned off by those flaws? Absolutely not! They endear us to her even more. Britta can't be a mary sue, because she's not supposed to be "cool", she's  supposed to be the opposite. Yet, she still has leagues of fans and tons of intellectual discussion about her.

But Britta is a hero. What about someone like Aku, a villain? Well, his flaws are literally the essence of his character. He's not just pure evil in some wordy 3rd grader understanding of "good and bad". He's pure "evil" (toxic) in terms of his actual personality traits. His braggadocio, pettiness, smugness, narcissism, and straight-up rudeness are all embedded character traits, and he has those traits because of his very nature (a big black evil mass).

YouTube

But these flaws just make us love the character more. They don't make us dislike him and aren't in service to a larger arc where we like him more when he overcomes those flaws. He never overcomes them, and he has the flaws throughout the entire series. But like I said, that's why he has fans and why he's such an endearing, funny character.

EDIT: Didn't see you edited your post to include villains, actually - but my point still stands.
Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 01:45:53 PM by Carmen


 
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But these flaws just make us love the character more.
nope

it seems to me that you just like shit characters


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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
โ€”Judge Aaron Satie
โ€”โ€”Carmen
But these flaws just make us love the character more.
nope

it seems to me that you just like shit characters
LOL dude, I'm far from alone in loving these people. You just have the bleakest outlook in the world, and it certainly extends to how you feel about fictional worlds and the characters within them.


 
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LOL dude, I'm far from alone in loving these people. You just have the bleakest outlook in the world, and it certainly extends to how you feel about fictional worlds and the characters within them.
you're also comparing episodic comedies to a serial drama

aku is likable as shit because he's funny and revels in how evil he is, and because of that, i'm willing to embrace it without question

azula can't revel in how evil she is, because she doesn't think she's evil, so i can't embrace her, because TLA takes itself more seriously than samurai jack does

in fact, i think that really pinpoints the issueโ€”azula doesn't THINK she's evil, yet she still possesses the exact same personality that every card-carrying villain does, ie. she still BEHAVES like someone who knows they're evil, but she doesn't; and it's the incongruence of these tropes that puts me off so much

if a villain doesn't think or understand why they're evil, i need the writers to convince me that, in some twisted version of reality, that her raison d'รชtre makes senseโ€”and for me, it just doesn't in azula's case
Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 02:13:00 PM by Verbatim


 
Jono
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
Lmao I'd knew you'd overreact if I mentioned Azula

Anyways, I enjoyed her character and in a way I felt bad for her towards the end when she's chained up and starts to lose her shit. Just a few episodes before that Azula had everything and in that moment she had nothing. She had finally lost and it completely destroyed her.

Book 3 just kept getting better and better with the character development with my favorites being Zuko and Katara.

My favorite moment from Book 3 is when Zuko finds Iroh and asks Iroh for forgiveness. Seeing Iroh immediately grab Zuko and giving him the biggest hug was such a powerful moment and damn near made me tear up. I had no idea this show was this emotional.


 
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i actually need to rewatch book 3 i think, my memories of it are very spotty in spite of it getting the most praise


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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
Avatar: The Last Airbender But It's Been Edited to Follow the Logic and Conventions of the M. Night Shyamalan Movie of the Same Name


 
Jono
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
i actually need to rewatch book 3 i think, my memories of it are very spotty in spite of it getting the most praise
Book 3 was fantastic and I enjoyed every single episode except for one where it pretty much was a recap of the entire series up to that point. It was funny and had it's minor moments with the characters, but it felt more like filler.

I also didn't like how Iroh was limited either. The original voice actor had died during Book 2 so I guess the writers had to rewrite a bunch of stuff for Book 3 so that gets a pass I guess. It's hard to replace a voice actor that played a character so well.


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The only time Azula was interesting was when Ty Lee chi blocked her.