Quote from: ALIE on April 23, 2016, 11:24:14 PM

It's literally the most tragic death in the whole show

Nah man, that would be Mike's death.

Mike dying pissed me off so much. He was so awesome.

I disagree. Mike's death was fucked up and senseless. It was when we truly saw how petty Walt was.

Jane's was sadder, affected more people, and just way more important in the scope of the show. The way Walt just looks down, sheds a single tear and closes his eyes, and when he opens them they're now cold and glazed over instead of empathetic.

I agree that Mike is kickass, though. Love him on BCS.

Quote from: ALIE on April 23, 2016, 11:24:14 PM

It's literally the most tragic death in the whole show

Nah man, that would be Mike's death.

Mike dying pissed me off so much. He was so awesome.

Mike's death was a lot more tragic.

Also the passengers of those planes that died as a result of Jane's death was pretty bad.

I'd also like to throw Gale's death in there too.

The entirety of Cardfight Vanguard's second season was turboshit from the depths of hell itself. Not until Halo Escalation have I seen something absolutely butcher the entire series is such a profound way. An entire season worth of character development went out the window along with the most iconic cards in the game all so they could promote some new deck that remains a pile of dogshit to this day. I literally dropped the show and the card game for a couple of years due to how godawful just the show alone was.
But then the second half season 3 happened and everything was good again.

Quote from: Mmmmm Napalm on April 23, 2016, 11:34:07 PM

Quote from: ALIE on April 23, 2016, 11:24:14 PM

It's literally the most tragic death in the whole show

Nah man, that would be Mike's death.

Mike dying pissed me off so much. He was so awesome.

Mike's death was a lot more tragic.

Also the passengers of those planes that died as a result of Jane's death was pretty bad.

I'd also like to throw Gale's death in there too.

Everyone sweeps Jane's death under the rug. It was a turning point, in the plot and in Walt's character.

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 05:34:59 AM

Quote from: challengerX on April 24, 2016, 05:17:06 AM

It's funny you don't criticize Mike who was basically Gus' slave and killed whoever he was told to kill. He would've killed Walt for pretty much no reason other than Gus was threatened by him.

Yeah, the point is that Mike's lifestyle wasn't a bad thing. He knew his place, he didn't have an ego.

Killing people for a living isn't a bad thing?

He probably drew the line at kids, but he showed several times he had no problem killing any man or woman. Because he did what he was told he's somehow more morally correct than Walt?

You're missing the point. Nobody is morally correct in this show. It's about struggling with choices you've made and trying to reconcile with them.

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The whole concept of the show revolves around Walt's inflated ego. He could've accepted Elliot and Gretchen's offer in the first place and never had to go into the business or take a single life. The big lesson of the show is disdaining the macho, egotistical, "provider" mindset. Walt was far from humble, he was vain, petty, and arrogant. He had many opportunities to do better for himself and his family but he willingly let his insecurities get the better of him.

The irony of Walt's character is that while he prides himself on being professional and logical-thinking, nearly all his conflicts and his fate come from his fragile emotional shell.

But the point being they (Elliot and Gretchen) only have what they have because of Walt.

He's a guy that has been fucked by everybody his whole life. He's a genius, and he ends up being a high school chemistry teacher and having to work part time at a car wash yo make ends meet. His friends betrayed him and then they reap the rewards of his hard work, and you think he should accept charity from them?

It was never stated that he made Grey Matter what it was. That's what Walt said in his rants, but it's obvious he hates the company and the two of them because of his feelings for Gretchen. With all the lies and justifcations he spins throughout the show, I'd be honestly surprised if he acted as anything more than a 50-50 contributor with Elliott.

Mike isn't morally correct at all, but he was certainly a better person and more competent criminal than Walt. Walt had intelligence and a lot of perception, but Mike had wisdom and honesty. None of Walt's actions in the show were about his family, they were about him. He wanted the recognition. Mike was actually in the crime business for his family, he knew his place because that's what was safest for them, he did what he had to do because that's how you stay alive the longest. Walt killed people that never deserved it; Jane was a civilian. The people who Mike kills are fellow criminals.

Walt indeed did get fucked over by life, but it was his own fault. He left a profitable chemical company because of his ego. Even if he learned his lesson there, he could've been a legendary drug kingpin like Gus. Do you think Gus let his pride or emotions get in his way? Only once. And the one time he did, he got his face blew off. I don't know how much more blatant the show can demostrate that the message is against Walt's ego fueled lifestyle.

The first draft of the scene was Walt injecting her with more heroin to force an OD, but they thought that wasn't subtle enough.

The point of the whole part was that it was Walt's first kill that wasn't in self defense, but strategy. It was showing that he was now desensitized enough to violence that he was willing to murder someone for a larger gain.

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 06:19:41 AM

Quote from: Mr. Psychologist on April 24, 2016, 06:14:03 AM

It's been a while but as I recall walt didn't kill the heroine, he just let her choke on her own degeneracy. Sure he could have saved her in the moment but that would have just led to her and jesse's deaths later on from OD anyway.

He accidentally pushed her over onto her back. She was smart and slept on her side. He then saw his mistake when she started choking and instinctively reached to turn her back over. Then he stopped short, thought for a second, and decided to let her choke on her own vomit.

Regardless of the justifications, how could you not consider that murder?

The justification of "they would've died from ODing anyway" is a tired one, but the truth is that it would've been on them if that happened, and Jane was months sober before Jesse entered the picture. People paint her as some junkie bitch, usually to take blame off of Walt. But that's far from the reality.

Ah, well that would be a bit more damning then.

I don't think it's murder really, maybe a form of manslaughter or malignant neglect (i.e not calling an ambulance) but he didn't set out to kill her, or harm her directly.

She was a junkie, but there's not really any cause to describe them as a bad person. It's really quite simple, if they'd kept up skagging themselves silly every other day for a length of time then death is inevitable.

Again it's been a while since I've seen it, but isn't the death of the little kid worse? Or did he survive the ricin thing, because I vaguely remember walt poisoning brock(?) to spite jesse.

He poisoned Brock, knowing it wasn't a dose he would die from. He lived. Not nearly as bad as murdering Jane.

He didn't set out to kill her, but it wasn't like his only crime wasn't calling an ambulance. She didn't roll over in her sleep (heroin makes you a rock) or foolishly sleep on her back. She was pushed over by an outside force.

She manipulated Jesse to get all of his money and run away to be druggies. If you really think she loved Jesse you're blind. Once the money ran out you think she would stay with Jesse? Or would she run back to daddy and "get sober again"?

I'm not saying she was a bad person, she just didn't care for Jesse like he did for her. The death was still super impact tho.

Jesse didn't have any money, Walt was holding it from him. They had to leave the next morning or she was getting the cops called on her; that was why she borderline blackmailed Walt into giving Jesse his money. Not out of "manipulation". If they managed to tear through all of it, her father would be the last place she'd turn.

I don't know why you think she didn't care about Jesse. She was clean before he came into the picture, and only started using with him out of sympathy after Combo died. If she only wanted the money, she would've done exactly what Walt did, but with Jesse. She reminded Jesse to sleep on his side, even after Walt already gave Jesse his cash. At that point, she could've let him die if she didn't care about him.

They obviously loved each other. Say what you want about Jane as a person. She may have been weak and irresponsible, but she pretty much threw away all she had (stable job, clean of drugs, support group) because of Jesse.

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 09:30:57 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 24, 2016, 08:49:48 AM

She manipulated Jesse to get all of his money and run away to be druggies. If you really think she loved Jesse you're blind. Once the money ran out you think she would stay with Jesse? Or would she run back to daddy and "get sober again"?

I'm not saying she was a bad person, she just didn't care for Jesse like he did for her. The death was still super impact tho.

Jesse didn't have any money, Walt was holding it from him. They had to leave the next morning or she was getting the cops called on her; that was why she borderline blackmailed Walt into giving Jesse his money. Not out of "manipulation". If they managed to tear through all of it, her father would be the last place she'd turn.

I don't know why you think she didn't care about Jesse. She was clean before he came into the picture, and only started using with him out of sympathy after Combo died. If she only wanted the money, she would've done exactly what Walt did, but with Jesse. She reminded Jesse to sleep on his side, even after Walt already gave Jesse his cash. At that point, she could've let him die if she didn't care about him.

They obviously loved each other. Say what you want about Jane as a person. She may have been weak and irresponsible, but she pretty much threw away all she had (stable job, clean of drugs, support group) because of Jesse.

The only thing she threw away was what her father wanted for her. She didn't start using again because she felt bad for Jesse, she started using again because that's what she wanted.

She found out about the money and did a complete turn around.

I have no idea where you get that leap of logic from. She didn't even know about the money until the second to last episode she was alive, and wanted it to secure a future for her and Jesse.

Literally nothing indicated it was some scheme to get the money from Jesse. Almost every scene she's in, except for those where she's logically angry with Jesse, has her oozing affection for him. It wasn't a long con to get at money she didn't even know existed. And if she was so eager to use as you're trying to say, she would've done it from the start, when Jesse offered it to her on multiple occasions. It wasn't until Jesse needed someone to console him after Combo's death (and he was smoking crystal even more heavily) that Jane finally gave in and did it for him.

Book 1 finale of LoK.

Quote from: ALIE on April 23, 2016, 11:24:14 PM

Jane's death in Breaking Bad is seen as neccesary and unimportant to most viewers

Not sure where you're getting this notion from, but I imagine most viewers recognize her death as a crucial point in Walt's downward spiral and the tragedy associated with that turn.

Some people think she killed herself by being foolish enough to do drugs and Walt's only crime was not saving her from her mistake

I guess it's a minority who think that ridiculously about it, but most people still don't see Walt's murder of Jane as bad as it really was

She was the only civilian that Walt killed.