Now that the dust has settled

Big Boss · October 06, 2016, 07:07:22 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 06:59:42 PM

Quote from: ApoplecticFowl on October 06, 2016, 06:02:50 PM
tbh I'm not even sure how to respond to this. In ANH there's a scene devoted to the apparent leadership of the Empire arguing the utility and necessity of the Death Star.
Which had about as much plot justification as a fighting game. At no point does the audience think for even a second that the Empire is anything but evil. There's no point where you think to yourself, "Huh, they kind of have a point here."
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Vader's motivations and character are fleshed out thoroughly in Empire
Yeah, as the generic scary bad guy he is.

Or was, until the prequels came along and saved his character.
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No effort is made to explain the "seduction"? The entirety of the events in Dagobah explains it, and is then presented to the audience practically through Cloud City.
Does it, though?

Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".

Thanks Yoda.

So, the Dark Side is bad because it's easier and more aggressive, which is bad because it's bad. Got it.

Anything else?
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Luke fleeing Dagobah out of fear of losing his friends, and the entire fight with Vader are a strong metaphor for the struggle. He's afraid of losing, afraid of dying, afraid of being too weak, unwilling to accept Vader as his father -- all of it is an expression of how "the dark side" relates to common fairytale themes and concepts.
I'm questioning the relevance of this. None of this explains how the Dark Side of the Force is remotely seductive in any way, which is all I care about. No believably intelligent character would allow themselves to be seduced by the Dark Side.

I mean, it's called the Dark Side for fuck's sake. That's about as subtle and nuanced as "THE BAD GUYS." There's no excuse.

Do any of the bad guys apart from Kylo Ren ever actually refer to themselves as 'The Dark Side?'

And my take from it was that it's not like their choosing to be evil, rather the actions they take begin to lead them down a path that eventually results to them falling.

It's seductive because it's the easy path, as Yoda said. I guess the 'light path' the one that the Jedi follow, involves really taking your time to understand the Force and meditating and all that. The Dark Side was all about harnessing and bending the Force to your will, something way easier and simpler than the Jedi way of doing it. Some people want the easier, more straightfoward route. If you are just after power and power alone you're more likely to just take the quick and easy path.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 07:08:44 PM

Quote from: Maverick on October 06, 2016, 06:41:32 PM

"The twist" was one of the most important influences on the plot of ROTJ and the entire series. Its not like it was just random and didn't go anywhere so I have no idea what the problem with it is.

Just because a scene is "important for the plot" doesn't make it any less stupid and cheesy. I don't give a single fuck that it had influence on the plot. It still doesn't make any sense and was a cheap way to pull some drama in. It obviously worked, because people are easily impressed by stupid shit.

If Empire were just released today, people would laugh at it.

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I've never understood how a movie "not standing on its own" is supposed to be a valid complaint in any serialized sequel. Is the Two Towers also bad because you need to watch Fellowship to understand it?

Yes. But that's mostly because LotR sucks cock as a franchise, too.

Movies should stand on their own.

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The fact that it's too black and white, good and bad can not only be applied to all the other SW movies but pretty much every movie ever. I can't even think of 10 movies off the top of my head where the protagonists and antagonists are all morally ambiguous grey characters.

Then you seriously need to start watching some more movies, and not just what's popular. I can think of HUNDREDS of movies that have morally ambiguous characters and themes. It's not that hard to look if you've actually seen some movies in your life.

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The idea of being seduced by the dark side was done poorly but that's a flaw with Return not Empire. Return was the one where they should have elaborated more on Anakins fall to the dark side and have some sort of explanation for why Luke would ever want to become the emperors apprentice but that was never done. I'm not sure why you blame this on Empire though.

I didn't, as I pointed out later in that post. I was criticizing the series as a whole there.

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I haven't heard you say anything about flaws with writing

Yes, I have.

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characters

Yes, I have.

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story structure

Yes... I have.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 07:17:09 PM

Quote from: Big Boss on October 06, 2016, 07:07:22 PM

Do any of the bad guys apart from Kylo Ren ever actually refer to themselves as 'The Dark Side?'

Well, let's take a famous line from the most famous scene from the most famous character in the franchise:

"If you only knew the power of the Dark Side..."

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And my take from it was that it's not like their choosing to be evil, rather the actions they take begin to lead them down a path that eventually results to them falling.

And then being evil. Which is not how morality works--it's just an over-simplified bastardization of morality to make shit easier to follow as an audience member.

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It's seductive because it's the easy path, as Yoda said.

Easy path to what? Power? Why is it bad to take the easy route? It's never explained. We're just supposed to see a red lightsaber and think "ooh, bad guy."

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If you are just after power and power alone you're more likely to just take the quick and easy path.

Right, but what I don't understand is why that = Dark Side. Why is that considered evil?

It's so black and white, and they expect us not to question it. It's insulting.

Turkey · October 06, 2016, 07:18:51 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 06:59:42 PM

Thanks Yoda.

So, the Dark Side is bad because it's easier and more aggressive, which is bad because it's bad. Got it.

That's pretty much exactly how you're supposed to feel, and is how Luke is feeling at the time. Then he goes to Cloud City, falls into the trap, gets his buddy Han captured and everyone else almost killed, gets his ass kicked and his hand cut off, and ends up falling nearly to his death -- all because he tried to rush to confront Vader out of fear and anger. Yeah it's lucky that it's a film, and protagonists generally don't die, but the point still stands that Yoda presents the hypothetical light vs dark consequences, and then Cloud City demonstrates how that actually works in the Star Wars universe.

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No believably intelligent character would allow themselves to be seduced by the Dark Side.

Is your issue with the concept in general? There are myriad examples in EU. "Seduced to the dark side" is no more than a euphemism for evil. You can't see how any character would be tempted to participate in the Empire's activities or pursue power, greed, revenge, etc. under any circumstance?

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it's just an over-simplified bastardization of morality

I'm not sure why you keep stating this, while also talking about how the prequels changed this. It's a saga; the movies aren't meant to be standalone stories in a vacuum, apart of the rest of the story. Lucas was heavily influenced by classic stories of heroes and villains, particularly westerns (including a few Kurosawa films). The OT presented a perspective of the Force, romanticized by the main character and nobody else. To Han it's a myth; to Kenobi, it's lost mysticism; to Yoda it's the entirety of the universe; to Vader, it's a means to power; to the Emperor, it's a method of control. And all of that is canonically after the prequels spelled out how wrong the Jedi were in interpreting the Force.

Big Boss · October 06, 2016, 07:31:19 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 07:17:09 PM

Quote from: Big Boss on October 06, 2016, 07:07:22 PM
Do any of the bad guys apart from Kylo Ren ever actually refer to themselves as 'The Dark Side?'
Well, let's take a famous line from the most famous scene from the most famous character in the franchise:

"If you only knew the power of the Dark Side..."
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And my take from it was that it's not like their choosing to be evil, rather the actions they take begin to lead them down a path that eventually results to them falling.
And then being evil. Which is not how morality works--it's just an over-simplified bastardization of morality to make shit easier to follow as an audience member.
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It's seductive because it's the easy path, as Yoda said.
Easy path to what? Power? Why is it bad to take the easy route? It's never explained. We're just supposed to see a red lightsaber and think "ooh, bad guy."

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If you are just after power and power alone you're more likely to just take the quick and easy path.
Right, but what I don't understand is why that = Dark Side. Why is that considered evil?

It's so black and white, and they expect us not to question it. It's insulting.

Right I'm shit at post formatting so I'll just try and answer in bullet points.

-

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Do any of the bad guys apart from Kylo Ren ever actually refer to themselves as 'The Dark Side?'
Well, let's take a famous line from the most famous scene from the most famous character in the franchise:
"If you only knew the power of the Dark Side..."

Okay you got me there, I completely forgot about that line. Maybe the whole 'Dark Side' name was propaganda started by the Republic to make the Sith seem more like the bad guys, and the name just kind of stuck around and they eventually adopted it. Why willingly label yourself as 'TEAM EVIL'? I dunno.

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And my take from it was that it's not like their choosing to be evil, rather the actions they take begin to lead them down a path that eventually results to them falling.
And then being evil. Which is not how morality works--it's just an over-simplified bastardization of morality to make shit easier to follow as an audience member.

As Yoda said, fear leads to anger, yadda yadda. Starting on the easy path usually just leads on into even worse evil-doing situations. It's pretty silly to assume that is always automatically leads into becoming a baddie but that was usually the case. It seemed pretty clear that Luke was feeling a bit frustrated while training with Yoda and just wanted to save his friends, he wasn't ready to continue the full Jedi training.

It took Vader and Palpatine a few attempts to try and coax him over to their side after that. They knew he'd need coaxing to be led down the dark path so they tried to kick start it by luring him away from the Jedi training, unable to complete his Jedi training at the time. He did take the easy way out by giving into his anger and lopping Vader's hand off in ROTJ. Not to say he would have immediately turned bad after that but the emotions were definetely there.

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It's seductive because it's the easy path, as Yoda said.
Easy path to what? Power? Why is it bad to take the easy route? It's never explained. We're just supposed to see a red lightsaber and think "ooh, bad guy."

If you are just after power and power alone you're more likely to just take the quick and easy path.
Right, but what I don't understand is why that = Dark Side. Why is that considered evil?

It's so black and white, and they expect us not to question it. It's insulting.

Yeah it's simpler to follow because Star Wars started out as a simple good guy vs bad guy story, a direct homage to the old classic serials. Good guys are good, bad guys are super evil. The heroes follow the righetous path of hard work and dedicated study and training, while the villains just lust after power and being all around dicks.

I'm hoping they go further with Kylo Ren in the next episodes because he seems like he could be a really cool character who walks the line between the two. He even admitted he was being torn.

Idk I'm probably waffling.

Turkey · October 06, 2016, 07:35:02 PM

This is getting excessive.

Big Boss · October 06, 2016, 07:37:04 PM

The movies are pretty black and white but there's more complex cases of it in the expanded universe

Depends if you take Star Wars at just the movies or want to dig deeper into it

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 08:02:31 PM

Quote from: ApoplecticFowl on October 06, 2016, 07:18:51 PM

That's pretty much exactly how you're supposed to feel, and is how Luke is feeling at the time. Then he goes to Cloud City, falls into the trap, gets his buddy Han captured and everyone else almost killed, gets his ass kicked and his hand cut off, and ends up falling nearly to his death -- all because he tried to rush to confront Vader out of fear and anger. Yeah it's lucky that it's a film, and protagonists generally don't die, but the point still stands that Yoda presents the hypothetical light vs dark consequences, and then Cloud City demonstrates how that actually works in the Star Wars universe.

That's still too black and white for me. I don't consider "fear" or "anger" to be inherently evil or "Dark" emotions. There's righteous anger, for example.

Harry Potter presents a beautiful example in Order of the Phoenix. After Bellatrix kills Sirius, Harry flips the fuck out and uses a Cruciatus Curse on her--which is illegal, and a curse typically used only by dark forces--but in his blind rage, he just didn't give a fuck. And as a result, his curse barely tickled her. Because in order for the curse to work to its full power, you basically have to be an evil, sadistic cunt like Bellatrix. But Harry was still able to cast it, because he had the intent to harm her--but he just wasn't quite evil enough to make it really work.

You may not like that example, but I think it's hard to deny that a series like HP handles moral matters like this with a lot more maturity and depth than Star Wars does.

Also, saying that Luke confronted Vader out of anger is fair, but "fear" seems like a big stretch. If he were scared, he wouldn't have gone to Cloud City in the first place. To me, the fact that he did shows the exact opposite. It was kinda ballsy, actually. Maybe impulsive and foolish, too.

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Is your issue with the concept in general? There are myriad examples in EU. "Seduced to the dark side" is no more than a euphemism for evil. You can't see how any character would be tempted to participate in the Empire's activities or pursue power, greed, revenge, etc. under any circumstance?

I mean, I guess I can, but it would only be a small exception of people. You know, people who wouldn't realistically have any clout with the public, unlike Palpatine. Who was democratically elected. By idiots.

Let me put it this way: I'd vote for Trump faster than I'd vote for Palpatine. That's how obviously evil he was. Yet he was still elected Supreme Chancellor. That, by far, is the dumbest thing about the prequels--but remmber: the OT set the stage for that to happen. They had to show his rise to power somehow, and how else could they have done it? It just demonstrates to me that it was never meant to be thought too hard about. You're just supposed to accept that there's an evil Empire. When you try to explain the logistics behind it, things get messy.

And yeah, I realize that the EU goes a little more in-depth on morality and expands on it quite a bit--which is all well and good, but it doesn't really lend the OT any reprieve whatsoever.

I don't agree with Mr. Plinkett on a lot of things, but I'm gonna quote him here: "What matters is the movies."

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 08:09:38 PM

Quote from: Big Boss on October 06, 2016, 07:31:19 PM

Why willingly label yourself as 'TEAM EVIL'? I dunno.

Well, frankly, it's because you're not meant to think about it too hard. It's just a perfunctory label that allows the audience to know exactly who they're supposed to be rooting for before the movie even begins. It was never meant to be given this much thought.

Which is fine, if you're fine with that--but personally, I'm not.

I don't appreciate it when movies tell me not to think.

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Yeah it's simpler to follow because Star Wars started out as a simple good guy vs bad guy story, a direct homage to the old classic serials. Good guys are good, bad guys are super evil. The heroes follow the righetous path of hard work and dedicated study and training, while the villains just lust after power and being all around dicks.

I'm hoping they go further with Kylo Ren in the next episodes because he seems like he could be a really cool character who walks the line between the two. He even admitted he was being torn.

Idk I'm probably waffling.

Yeah, that's why TFA is my favorite in the series. Because despite what Turkey seems to think, it adds a lot of previously-nonexistent nuance to the Force (and again, I don't care about the EU. It's not even canon anymore).

Turkey · October 06, 2016, 08:12:52 PM

I'm not going to defend the movies to death; on a realistic scale (and I know I've fucked around with number ratings, and I don't really like quantifying a movie's quality), I'd give most of them a 6 or 7 out of 10 -- average (judging the movies, not their cultural impact). There are a lot of thematic and plot issues to be critiqued, but I don't think the OT even wants viewers to care about that. It's more about the few characters that are on screen, struggling through relatively personal and small conflicts (even though they span multiple planets, the same exact scenarios could be conceived of in a small town, a la spaghetti westerns). The prequels certainly do branch out from a small space drama to a much broader scale, and I think that may be specifically why you appreciate them more than the OT.

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 08:09:38 PM

Because despite what Turkey seems to think, it adds a lot of previously-nonexistent nuance to the Force

Genuinely interested: like what? And regardless, when I said it doesn't add much to the story, I didn't mean it doesn't add much nitty-gritty to the lore -- I mean in a narrative and character sense, it did nothing new, merely polishing aspects of the past 6 movies. It skips the hero's journey Luke had to go through for Rey and Kylo is Anakin 2.0 (and that's a good thing), though I'm surprised you don't take issue with the same premise of an evil organization that we're just supposed to accept; there's really no explanation for the state of the republic, the resistance, or the first order.

Winy · October 06, 2016, 08:24:35 PM

5 > 3 > 6 > 4 > 7 > 2 > 1

maverick · October 06, 2016, 08:39:14 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 07:08:44 PM

It still doesn't make any sense and was a cheap way to pull some drama in.

Explain how then. Coming up with something at the last moment (assuming this is true) doesn't automatically make it bad.

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Movies should stand on their own.

That's stupid.

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Then you seriously need to start watching some more movies, and not just what's popular. I can think of HUNDREDS of movies that have morally ambiguous characters and themes. It's not that hard to look if you've actually seen some movies in your life.

Why don't you name some then.

You're probably just going to start naming movies that have some grey characters, which isn't what I was saying.

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Yes... I have.

Even if your complaints were valid, thinking a plot twist was cheap seems like small potatoes compared to having several plot holes, one dimensional characters, a messy and convoluted story, or a complete lack of originality like some of the later installments have.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 08:51:34 PM

Quote from: ApoplecticFowl on October 06, 2016, 08:12:52 PM

I'm not going to defend the movies to death; on a realistic scale (and I know I've fucked around with number ratings, and I don't really like quantifying a movie's quality), I'd give most of them a 6 or 7 out of 10 -- average (judging the movies, not their cultural impact). There are a lot of thematic and plot issues to be critiqued, but I don't think the OT even wants viewers to care about that. It's more about the few characters that are on screen, struggling through relatively personal and small conflicts (even though they span multiple planets, the same exact scenarios could be conceived of in a small town, a la spaghetti westerns). The prequels certainly do branch out from a small space drama to a much broader scale, and I think that may be specifically why you appreciate them more than the OT.

Pretty much, yeah. Make no mistake, though--with the exception of maybe TFA, I don't consider any of the Star Wars films to be especially "good." Not even the prequels--even though I'll defend them to my grave. People react with such incredulity whenever I say I like the prequels more than the the OT--but here's the thing: I don't really like them; I just think they're better. They function stronger as movies to me.

People will still disagree with that, of course, but whatever I guess.

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 08:09:38 PM

Genuinely interested: like what?

Okay, maybe not the Force, but the established system of ethics that the Force... governs, I guess. It introduces a little bit of the moral nuance I've been wanting so much in a Star Wars movie.

You'll probably disagree with this, but out of the seven films, Kylo Ren is the only character who seems genuinely torn between the two sides. Luke was a good little boy who took a few little peeks at the Dark Side every once in awhile, but never dared to stick so much as a finger out past the divide. Anakin was seduced very quickly. He stayed evil and never looked back until the end of Return.

The way Kylo Ren acts, however, is that of a lonely confused child who doesn't understand his own convictions. He doesn't know what he's doing or who he is or anything--he was simply led astray by a greater evil (the details of which we understand very little). Much of this can be attributed to Adam Driver's performance, which in my opinion was excellent. His performance offered the more unique sense of morality than any other major character in the series.

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I'm surprised you don't take issue with the same premise of an evil organization that we're just supposed to accept; there's really no explanation for the state of the republic, the resistance, or the first order.

Yeah, TFA isn't flawless. But I have faith that those subjects will be extrapolated upon in the next two installments. And if they aren't, you can rest assured that my opinion of TFA (and the series as a whole) will be much less enthusiastic.

Loverboy · October 06, 2016, 09:10:51 PM

Quote from: Maverick on October 06, 2016, 06:41:32 PM

It seems like you're really reaching to hate on this movie.

That's because he is.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 09:13:23 PM

Quote from: Loverboy on October 06, 2016, 09:10:51 PM

That's because he is.

You really don't have to reach too hard to hate Empire. You just have to use your brain.

None of my points have remotely suggested that I'm reaching whatsoever. It's just hard for you to accept that someone could hate something as beloved as Star Wars.

Not to mention, I DID say I was pressed for time and wasn't willing to write an entire thesis explaining to you people why I don't like a shitty movie. Why should I obliged to do that? SW fans are so entitled and childlike.

maverick · October 06, 2016, 09:25:01 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 09:13:23 PM

Not to mention, I DID say I was pressed for time and wasn't willing to write an entire thesis explaining to you people why I don't like a shitty movie. Why should I obliged to do that? SW fans are so entitled and childlike.

I mean you were the one that quoted me first trying to argue but okay it's your world I guess.

Loverboy · October 06, 2016, 09:28:01 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 09:13:23 PM

Quote from: Loverboy on October 06, 2016, 09:10:51 PM
That's because he is.
You really don't have to reach too hard to hate Empire. You just have to use your brain.

None of my points have remotely suggested that I'm reaching whatsoever. It's just hard for you to accept that someone could hate something as beloved as Star Wars.

Not to mention, I DID say I was pressed for time and wasn't willing to write an entire thesis explaining to you people why I don't like a shitty movie. Why should I obliged to do that? SW fans are so entitled and childlike.

You're being presumptuous. I'm no Star Wars fan.

You're not obliged or even requested to do anything. You think the prequels are better movies than the originals, so it's very clear to me what you're about. I don't need a book and a half justifying your contrarianism.