Now that the dust has settled

Dan · October 05, 2016, 08:26:43 PM

Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
A New Hope
Revenge of the Sith
The Force Awakens
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

Jim · October 05, 2016, 08:27:17 PM

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Verbatim · October 05, 2016, 08:33:49 PM

if 546312 is your order, why even waste time typing all that shit out

just say "i have the most conventional possible opinion"

or just say "RLM," because it's clear where you get your opinions from

Jim · October 05, 2016, 08:35:35 PM

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DAS B00T x2 · October 05, 2016, 08:37:19 PM

Quote from: Jim on October 05, 2016, 08:35:35 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 05, 2016, 08:33:49 PM
if 546312 is your order, why even waste time typing all that shit out

just say "i have the most conventional possible opinion"
It's the only right one.

You might be able to toss up the prequels, but Empire is the best, I like New Hope cus it's comfy, and Return of the Jedi is cuhrazy.

RotS is the objective best of the prequels, and Attack of the Clones is the objective worst Star Wars movie ever made and one of the worst fucking pieces of shit ever made.

but jim

you're wrong

Jim · October 05, 2016, 08:37:31 PM

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DAS B00T x2 · October 05, 2016, 08:38:36 PM

Quote from: Jim on October 05, 2016, 08:37:31 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T x2 on October 05, 2016, 08:37:19 PM
Quote from: Jim on October 05, 2016, 08:35:35 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 05, 2016, 08:33:49 PM
if 546312 is your order, why even waste time typing all that shit out

just say "i have the most conventional possible opinion"
It's the only right one.

You might be able to toss up the prequels, but Empire is the best, I like New Hope cus it's comfy, and Return of the Jedi is cuhrazy.

RotS is the objective best of the prequels, and Attack of the Clones is the objective worst Star Wars movie ever made and one of the worst fucking pieces of shit ever made.
but jim

you're wrong
About what specifically

What I have underlined

Jim · October 05, 2016, 08:39:19 PM

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Jim · October 05, 2016, 08:44:24 PM

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Jono · October 05, 2016, 08:45:59 PM

For once I agree with Jim

Loverboy · October 05, 2016, 09:03:10 PM

1. The Empire Strikes Back, 2. Star Wars, 3. The Force Awakens, 4. Return of the Jedi, 5. Revenge of the Sith, 6. The Phantom Menace, and 7. Attack of the Clones.

Rogue One should be somewhere between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. Episode 8 could be better than Star Wars.

big sponge · October 05, 2016, 09:10:58 PM

5 > 6 > 4 > 7 > 3 > 2 = 1

I should probably say that I think Rogue looks more interesting than 7 so I hope it's actually good. Even if I would have preferred it to be Kyle Katarn instead of a Disney OC.

Dan · October 06, 2016, 02:56:44 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 05, 2016, 08:33:49 PM

just say "i have the most conventional possible opinion"

More like the most correct possible opinion.

Turkey · October 06, 2016, 03:17:09 PM

Empire
Jedi
<——————-Anticipated spot of Rogue One
ANH
Clones
Revenge
Awakens
Phantom

Note that this is my favorites list, not what I would consider the "best", and probably changes frequently. I like Jedi a lot because of nostalgia, but recognize it has serious narrative flaws that ought to put it lower, and while I do like TFA, I respect that RotS and AotC were more original and added more depth to the Star Wars universe. TFA did almost nothing to improve the story of Star Wars, and did quite a bit to set it back.

Jim · October 06, 2016, 03:19:12 PM

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🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 06, 2016, 03:32:29 PM

Quote from: Jim on October 05, 2016, 08:44:24 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on October 05, 2016, 02:35:14 PM
Phantom menace wasn't that terrible, Darth maul was p cool.
I'd argue it's maybe tied with RotS. It might be a little better, I dunno, I'd have to watch them again. Darth Maul is pretty rad, I will never not think so.

RotS has some crazy pacing issues. Viewings always feel like a slog to me; despite the things that TPM did wrong, at least it feels more brief.

Still better than AotC tho

The Lord Ruler · October 06, 2016, 03:36:53 PM

>people still unironically consider Empire to be the best star wars movie

this meme needs to die

maverick · October 06, 2016, 04:10:54 PM

Quote from: The Lord Ruler on October 06, 2016, 03:36:53 PM

>people still unironically consider Empire to be the best star wars movie

this meme needs to die

ANH is the only one you can even make an argument that it is better. None of the others even come close.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 04:27:02 PM

Quote from: Dan on October 06, 2016, 02:56:44 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 05, 2016, 08:33:49 PM

just say "i have the most conventional possible opinion"

More like the most correct possible opinion.

If you don't understand film.

I guess not all of us can have good taste, but I wish SW fans weren't so obnoxious about it.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 04:27:46 PM

Quote from: Maverick on October 06, 2016, 04:10:54 PM

Quote from: The Lord Ruler on October 06, 2016, 03:36:53 PM
>people still unironically consider Empire to be the best star wars movie

this meme needs to die
ANH is the only one you can even make an argument that it is better. None of the others even come close.

Every single other film in the series is vastly better than Empire. Especially the prequels.

ANH is only marginally better.

Turkey · October 06, 2016, 04:33:50 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 04:27:46 PM

Quote from: Maverick on October 06, 2016, 04:10:54 PM
Quote from: The Lord Ruler on October 06, 2016, 03:36:53 PM
>people still unironically consider Empire to be the best star wars movie

this meme needs to die
ANH is the only one you can even make an argument that it is better. None of the others even come close.
Every single other film in the series is vastly better than Empire. Especially the prequels.

ANH is only marginally better.

This thread is about favorites, not quality. How do you justify the claim that 5 is the worst in the series?

Genghis Khan · October 06, 2016, 04:37:07 PM

Empire
ANH
Jedi
Awakens
Revenge
Clones
Phantom

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 04:51:08 PM

Quote from: MeanBird on October 06, 2016, 04:33:50 PM

This thread is about favorites, not quality.

It stopped being that when people started throwing around words like "objectively" like they always do.

Quote

How do you justify the claim that 5 is the worst in the series?

I'm pressed for time right now because I have a project to finish and other things, so I'll have to come back to this later if I still care to talk about it. In short, it's boring as fuck. It does nothing to make me care about anything that's going on. The Hoth battle is one of the most excruciatingly monotonous sequences I've ever seen in a movie, and it's fucking endless. The twist, while revolutionary at the time, simply isn't anymore. It comes across like a diabolus ex machina--I think I watched a documentary that revealed Lucas basically pulled that out of his ass. And it's very apparent, because it doesn't make any logical sense--it's just there for drama--which may have worked in the 80s, but is cheesy as hell today.

It also suffers in part from being too much of a predicate to ANH. In other words, it doesn't stand on its own very well.

Being a Star Wars movie certainly doesn't help, either. It's a dumb fairytale with black-and-white morality--just an inherently bad concept from the word go. The bad guys are bad because they're bad, and that's it. No effort by the original films are made to let the audience understand how anyone could possibly be """seduced""" by the power of the Dark Side. Blowing up planets because "lol we're so evil gaiz, we gon conquer da unaverse!!" Hmm. Yeah. Riveting.

So really, the whole OT is a pile of shit. I just hate Empire the most, because it contained so little entertainment value. At least Return has the best duel in the series--that I can say for sure.

Oh, but you know what DID explore reasons for why one would join the Dark Side? The prequels.

Dietrich Six · October 06, 2016, 05:40:23 PM

Galactic peace treaties are boring af and jar jar binks is literally the worst thing on film.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 05:43:19 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on October 06, 2016, 05:40:23 PM

Galactic peace treaties are boring af and jar jar binks is literally the worst thing on film.

Still more interesting than anything that happened in Empire.

Jar Jar is funny and entertaining.

Dietrich Six · October 06, 2016, 05:44:35 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 05:43:19 PM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on October 06, 2016, 05:40:23 PM
Galactic peace treaties are boring af and jar jar binks is literally the worst thing on film.
Still more interesting than anything that happened in Empire.

Jar Jar is funny and entertaining.

Empire criticism aside, there's no way you find jar jar entertaining.

Turkey · October 06, 2016, 06:02:50 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 04:51:08 PM

The bad guys are bad because they're bad, and that's it. No effort by the original films are made to let the audience understand how anyone could possibly be """seduced""" by the power of the Dark Side.

tbh I'm not even sure how to respond to this. In ANH there's a scene devoted to the apparent leadership of the Empire arguing the utility and necessity of the Death Star. The Emperor -- the only truly "bad for the sake of being bad" character in the OT -- barely exists until RotJ. Vader's motivations and character are fleshed out thoroughly in Empire, and more so in Jedi; yes, the decision to make Vader a more important character and Luke's father was not determined before writing the script, but it wasn't some last-minute alteration before releasing the film.

No effort is made to explain the "seduction"? The entirety of the events in Dagobah explains it, and is then presented to the audience practically through Cloud City. Yes, unlike the prequels they don't sit down in a room and look at the camera and tell the audience how morality works in their universe, but Luke fleeing Dagobah out of fear of losing his friends, and the entire fight with Vader are a strong metaphor for the struggle. He's afraid of losing, afraid of dying, afraid of being too weak, unwilling to accept Vader as his father -- all of it is an expression of how "the dark side" relates to common fairytale themes and concepts.

maverick · October 06, 2016, 06:41:32 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 06, 2016, 04:51:08 PM

I'm pressed for time right now because I have a project to finish and other things, so I'll have to come back to this later if I still care to talk about it. In short, it's boring as fuck. It does nothing to make me care about anything that's going on. The Hoth battle is one of the most excruciatingly monotonous sequences I've ever seen in a movie, and it's fucking endless. The twist, while revolutionary at the time, simply isn't anymore. It comes across like a diabolus ex machina--I think I watched a documentary that revealed Lucas basically pulled that out of his ass. And it's very apparent, because it doesn't make any logical sense--it's just there for drama--which may have worked in the 80s, but is cheesy as hell today.

It also suffers in part from being too much of a predicate to ANH. In other words, it doesn't stand on its own very well.

Being a Star Wars movie certainly doesn't help, either. It's a dumb fairytale with black-and-white morality--just an inherently bad concept from the word go. The bad guys are bad because they're bad, and that's it. No effort by the original films are made to let the audience understand how anyone could possibly be """seduced""" by the power of the Dark Side. Blowing up planets because "lol we're so evil gaiz, we gon conquer da unaverse!!" Hmm. Yeah. Riveting.

So really, the whole OT is a pile of shit. I just hate Empire the most, because it contained so little entertainment value. At least Return has the best duel in the series--that I can say for sure.

Oh, but you know what DID explore reasons for why one would join the Dark Side? The prequels.

It seems like you're really reaching to hate on this movie.

"The twist" was one of the most important influences on the plot of ROTJ and the entire series. Its not like it was just random and didn't go anywhere so I have no idea what the problem with it is.

I've never understood how a movie "not standing on its own" is supposed to be a valid complaint in any serialized sequel. Is the Two Towers also bad because you need to watch Fellowship to understand it?

The fact that it's too black and white, good and bad can not only be applied to all the other SW movies but pretty much every movie ever. I can't even think of 10 movies off the top of my head where the protagonists and antagonists are all morally ambiguous grey characters.

The idea of being seduced by the dark side was done poorly but that's a flaw with Return not Empire. Return was the one where they should have elaborated more on Anakins fall to the dark side and have some sort of explanation for why Luke would ever want to become the emperors apprentice but that was never done. I'm not sure why you blame this on Empire though.

I haven't heard you say anything about flaws with writing, characters, or story structure (things that actually make a movie good or bad) like the other Star Wars movies have numerous of. If these are the things that can ruin a movie for you, I'm surprised you like anything.

Big Boss · October 06, 2016, 06:47:34 PM

Y'know, when I watched the prequel trilogy again recently, I surprisingly hated Attack of the Clones the least. I mean, it had some pretty good stuff.

We got to see what Coruscant's night life was like, Jango Fett was pretty awesome, I really liked the Kamino scenes and Christopher Lee is always awesome. It actually felt like it's own complete story with a beginning, middle and end that didn't get overly bogged down trying to set things up perfectly. It has its problems but I find it the most watchable out of the prequels.

Phantom Menace is pretty much entirely skippable because nothing happens. You could argue that the Darth Maul fight is cool (yeah it's well coreographed and looks pretty but what's the point in watching a movie for one scene?)

Revenge of the Sith is so boring holy shit. Obi Wan and Anakin's banter is awful and the one liners and slapstick humor are downright atrocious. The final battle drags on for way too long and they shoved in too much shit at the end to set up ANH.

The worst thing is, the team behind the teams tried their damned hardest to put in as much detail as possible. Star Wars is a really interesting universe and the stuff happening in the prequels was entertaining at least, but the way the films portrayed it was sooooo booooring.

I'm going against what I said about The Phantom Menace just now, but I fully believe the scenes on the Death Star in Jedi fully make up for the rest of the film's shortcomings. The final battle with Luke vs Vader in the Emperor's throne room is the best lightsaber fight in the entire series, hands down.

So I guess my overall order would be....

6>5>7>4>2>3>1

Huh, never seen it go like that before.

Verbatim · October 06, 2016, 06:59:42 PM

Quote from: ApoplecticFowl on October 06, 2016, 06:02:50 PM

tbh I'm not even sure how to respond to this. In ANH there's a scene devoted to the apparent leadership of the Empire arguing the utility and necessity of the Death Star.

Which had about as much plot justification as a fighting game. At no point does the audience think for even a second that the Empire is anything but evil. There's no point where you think to yourself, "Huh, they kind of have a point here."

Quote

Vader's motivations and character are fleshed out thoroughly in Empire

Yeah, as the generic scary bad guy he is.

Or was, until the prequels came along and saved his character.

Quote

No effort is made to explain the "seduction"? The entirety of the events in Dagobah explains it, and is then presented to the audience practically through Cloud City.

Does it, though?

Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.
Luke: But tell my why I can't...
Yoda: No, no! There is no "why".

Thanks Yoda.

So, the Dark Side is bad because it's easier and more aggressive, which is bad because it's bad. Got it.

Anything else?

Quote

Luke fleeing Dagobah out of fear of losing his friends, and the entire fight with Vader are a strong metaphor for the struggle. He's afraid of losing, afraid of dying, afraid of being too weak, unwilling to accept Vader as his father -- all of it is an expression of how "the dark side" relates to common fairytale themes and concepts.

I'm questioning the relevance of this. None of this explains how the Dark Side of the Force is remotely seductive in any way, which is all I care about. No believably intelligent character would allow themselves to be seduced by the Dark Side.

I mean, it's called the Dark Side for fuck's sake. That's about as subtle and nuanced as "THE BAD GUYS." There's no excuse.