Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:59:07 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:43:38 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:41:53 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:05:42 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 11:59:16 PM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 16, 2015, 10:51:51 PM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on May 16, 2015, 10:43:14 PM

Now that's annoying. Throwing in villains Spider-man 3 style is not going to help, they already have Lex Luthor in it.

Lex is more of an anti hero in a lot of continuities and having 2 villains isn't exactly gonna saturate the movie.

But they already have like a million heroes. We only need 2 heroes and 1 villain.

it is the setup for the birth of their Justice League, you know

Annnnnnnnnnnnnd? They're seriously going to do the whole "oh we're all friends!" thing at the start of JL? Hahahaha. Yeah sorry but there's a reason The Avengers worked. Even if you didn't see the rest of the MCU you could watch the Avengers and know that it was about a team coming together to stop a bad guy with a magic mcguffin. DC are desperately playing catchup and them cramming as much into Bats V Sups as possible is just stupid.

Bats V Sups should just be about Batman and Superman starting out as enemies then teaming up when the big bad guy starts being a big bad guy, they don't need half the Justice League showing up.

the avengers worked because it was a $$$$-driven popcorn machine, not because it had a solid narrative.

I smell a DC fanboy. Sorry but with the plans WB has for the DCCU.... It's gonna suck. The decisions that have been made so far are mostly terrible to confusing while the only real fan rage in the MCU was Iron Man 3's Mandarin. And it's not that the DCCU is going to be dark and gritty, Dredd was dark and gritty but it was awesome, MoS and from the looks of it Bats V Sups and Suicide Squad are going to be dull, grey and take themselves waaaaaay too seriously.

DC media is at its best when its gritty. See: Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, Teen Titans, The Dark Knight, Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths, Assault on Arkham.

Marvel excels at being irreverent eye candy. DC excels at being meaningful.

The Dark Knight Returns was horrible.

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 01:00:30 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:57:53 AM

Quote from: Nick McIntyre on May 17, 2015, 12:54:38 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:43:38 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:41:53 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:05:42 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 11:59:16 PM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 16, 2015, 10:51:51 PM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on May 16, 2015, 10:43:14 PM

Now that's annoying. Throwing in villains Spider-man 3 style is not going to help, they already have Lex Luthor in it.

Lex is more of an anti hero in a lot of continuities and having 2 villains isn't exactly gonna saturate the movie.

But they already have like a million heroes. We only need 2 heroes and 1 villain.

it is the setup for the birth of their Justice League, you know

Annnnnnnnnnnnnd? They're seriously going to do the whole "oh we're all friends!" thing at the start of JL? Hahahaha. Yeah sorry but there's a reason The Avengers worked. Even if you didn't see the rest of the MCU you could watch the Avengers and know that it was about a team coming together to stop a bad guy with a magic mcguffin. DC are desperately playing catchup and them cramming as much into Bats V Sups as possible is just stupid.

Bats V Sups should just be about Batman and Superman starting out as enemies then teaming up when the big bad guy starts being a big bad guy, they don't need half the Justice League showing up.

the avengers worked because it was a $$$$-driven popcorn machine, not because it had a solid narrative.

That's essentially Man of Steel in a nutshell.

MoS didnt have nearly the amount of $$$-hype behind it and it actually had a meaningful conflict. it had a lot of flaws but i think its fundamentally a much better movie.

MoS a better movie?...... LMAO

the avengers may as well have not even happened. that movie could literally disappear from the franchise and nothing would change.

Not really.  That movie is truly the driving point for the Infinity Stones story arc playing throughout the movies, and is our sample introduction to the Marvel Cosmic Universe (with Guardians of the Galaxy being the welcome train).

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:59:07 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:43:38 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:41:53 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:05:42 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 11:59:16 PM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 16, 2015, 10:51:51 PM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on May 16, 2015, 10:43:14 PM

Now that's annoying. Throwing in villains Spider-man 3 style is not going to help, they already have Lex Luthor in it.

Lex is more of an anti hero in a lot of continuities and having 2 villains isn't exactly gonna saturate the movie.

But they already have like a million heroes. We only need 2 heroes and 1 villain.

it is the setup for the birth of their Justice League, you know

Annnnnnnnnnnnnd? They're seriously going to do the whole "oh we're all friends!" thing at the start of JL? Hahahaha. Yeah sorry but there's a reason The Avengers worked. Even if you didn't see the rest of the MCU you could watch the Avengers and know that it was about a team coming together to stop a bad guy with a magic mcguffin. DC are desperately playing catchup and them cramming as much into Bats V Sups as possible is just stupid.

Bats V Sups should just be about Batman and Superman starting out as enemies then teaming up when the big bad guy starts being a big bad guy, they don't need half the Justice League showing up.

the avengers worked because it was a $$$$-driven popcorn machine, not because it had a solid narrative.

I smell a DC fanboy. Sorry but with the plans WB has for the DCCU.... It's gonna suck. The decisions that have been made so far are mostly terrible to confusing while the only real fan rage in the MCU was Iron Man 3's Mandarin. And it's not that the DCCU is going to be dark and gritty, Dredd was dark and gritty but it was awesome, MoS and from the looks of it Bats V Sups and Suicide Squad are going to be dull, grey and take themselves waaaaaay too seriously.

DC media is at its best when its gritty. See: Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, Teen Titans, The Dark Knight, Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths, Assault on Arkham.

Marvel excels at being irreverent eye candy. DC excels at being meaningful.

I'm not disagreeing, except for I believe that Batman is at his best when he's gritty.  We had grotesque "gritty" flops like Cry (gay) For Justice, Identity Crisis, Rise of Arsenal, etc. (and Marvel is guilty of the same thing, most glaringly with Ultimatum)

A gritty Superman and Wonder Woman just can't cut it for me, which is why I had such a hard time getting into Man of Steel.  The action was great, cinematography wasn't bad, and Zod was awesome.  But the plot was a fucking mess, especially when cutting between Superman just walking around being a Boy Scout (except when he Shreks a truck) and rather decent childhood scenes.  I think it would've been much better if the scenes were played in some order instead of just randomly cutting back to and fro.

Quote from: Korra Valentine on May 17, 2015, 01:05:56 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 01:03:20 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:59:07 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:43:38 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:41:53 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:05:42 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 11:59:16 PM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 16, 2015, 10:51:51 PM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on May 16, 2015, 10:43:14 PM

Now that's annoying. Throwing in villains Spider-man 3 style is not going to help, they already have Lex Luthor in it.

Lex is more of an anti hero in a lot of continuities and having 2 villains isn't exactly gonna saturate the movie.

But they already have like a million heroes. We only need 2 heroes and 1 villain.

it is the setup for the birth of their Justice League, you know

Annnnnnnnnnnnnd? They're seriously going to do the whole "oh we're all friends!" thing at the start of JL? Hahahaha. Yeah sorry but there's a reason The Avengers worked. Even if you didn't see the rest of the MCU you could watch the Avengers and know that it was about a team coming together to stop a bad guy with a magic mcguffin. DC are desperately playing catchup and them cramming as much into Bats V Sups as possible is just stupid.

Bats V Sups should just be about Batman and Superman starting out as enemies then teaming up when the big bad guy starts being a big bad guy, they don't need half the Justice League showing up.

the avengers worked because it was a $$$$-driven popcorn machine, not because it had a solid narrative.

I smell a DC fanboy. Sorry but with the plans WB has for the DCCU.... It's gonna suck. The decisions that have been made so far are mostly terrible to confusing while the only real fan rage in the MCU was Iron Man 3's Mandarin. And it's not that the DCCU is going to be dark and gritty, Dredd was dark and gritty but it was awesome, MoS and from the looks of it Bats V Sups and Suicide Squad are going to be dull, grey and take themselves waaaaaay too seriously.

DC media is at its best when its gritty. See: Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, Teen Titans, The Dark Knight, Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths, Assault on Arkham.

Marvel excels at being irreverent eye candy. DC excels at being meaningful.

The Dark Knight Returns was horrible.

Dark Knight Returns 2 was even worse.

YouTube

Ugh don't remind me.

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:59:07 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:43:38 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 17, 2015, 12:41:53 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 12:05:42 AM

Quote from: Magos Domina on May 16, 2015, 11:59:16 PM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 16, 2015, 10:51:51 PM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on May 16, 2015, 10:43:14 PM

Now that's annoying. Throwing in villains Spider-man 3 style is not going to help, they already have Lex Luthor in it.

Lex is more of an anti hero in a lot of continuities and having 2 villains isn't exactly gonna saturate the movie.

But they already have like a million heroes. We only need 2 heroes and 1 villain.

it is the setup for the birth of their Justice League, you know

Annnnnnnnnnnnnd? They're seriously going to do the whole "oh we're all friends!" thing at the start of JL? Hahahaha. Yeah sorry but there's a reason The Avengers worked. Even if you didn't see the rest of the MCU you could watch the Avengers and know that it was about a team coming together to stop a bad guy with a magic mcguffin. DC are desperately playing catchup and them cramming as much into Bats V Sups as possible is just stupid.

Bats V Sups should just be about Batman and Superman starting out as enemies then teaming up when the big bad guy starts being a big bad guy, they don't need half the Justice League showing up.

the avengers worked because it was a $$$$-driven popcorn machine, not because it had a solid narrative.

I smell a DC fanboy. Sorry but with the plans WB has for the DCCU.... It's gonna suck. The decisions that have been made so far are mostly terrible to confusing while the only real fan rage in the MCU was Iron Man 3's Mandarin. And it's not that the DCCU is going to be dark and gritty, Dredd was dark and gritty but it was awesome, MoS and from the looks of it Bats V Sups and Suicide Squad are going to be dull, grey and take themselves waaaaaay too seriously.

DC media is at its best when its gritty. See: Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, Teen Titans, The Dark Knight, Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths, Assault on Arkham.

Marvel excels at being irreverent eye candy. DC excels at being meaningful.

Again, lol fanboy. Crisis on Two Earths is gritty? Assault on Arkham gritty? Teen Titans Gritty? Fuck not even the Dark Knight is gritty.

There's literally nothing wrong with a darker, more serious approach to the DC universe when the characters that it represents are portrayed faithfully. Then it just becomes a "new" series of interesting challenges that characters of the DC universe get to go through. There's also nothing wrong with writing a story involving numerous unintroduced characters, especially when most of them are confirmed cameos and not even given a billing in the poster credits.

Man of Steel portrayed Superman quite faithfully to many of his most storied comics- and I implore all who disagree to debate me on it [later, it's like 4AM rn lmao]. It may have went overboard in a few places [Birthright^10 Pa Kent], but the character's still the altruistic idealist we all know from the comics. That is obviously going to carry over in BvS [still hilarious to me how the trailer has people fooled IRL into thinking Superman is acting evil]. Superman is one of the most complex and nuanced characters in comic book history, but people overlook him because all they see is the boyscout persona from the 70s movies. A politically charged scenario like BvS, where Superman can truly show the struggles he'd face being amongst us, is exactly what I think people need to get invested into him again.

And the best thing about all of this is that DC's going for an entirely different approach to Marvel in that it's putting filmmakers before coherence to some overall tonal gauge for the entire universe. I think this kind of approach ultimately leads to better films in general [I offer Guardians and TWS as examples from Marvel's offerings]. So does Joss Whedon, as his entire exit from the MCU has been riddled with "Marvel didn't let me do anything ." DC's work is inherently going to be tonally diverse because of it; WB already stated that Shazam would be light hearted and even got Lord/Miller to write The Flash.

Y'know who really needs a film debut?

Mister motherfucking Majestic.

Quote from: ((go)^ji)^ra on May 17, 2015, 02:45:28 AM

There's literally nothing wrong with a darker, more serious approach to the DC universe when the characters that it represents are portrayed faithfully. Then it just becomes a "new" series of interesting challenges that characters of the DC universe get to go through. There's also nothing wrong with writing a story involving numerous unintroduced characters, especially when most of them are confirmed cameos and not even given a billing in the poster credits.

Man of Steel portrayed Superman quite faithfully to many of his most storied comics- and I implore all who disagree to debate me on it [later, it's like 4AM rn lmao]. It may have went overboard in a few places [Birthright^10 Pa Kent], but the character's still the altruistic idealist we all know from the comics. That is obviously going to carry over in BvS [still hilarious to me how the trailer has people fooled IRL into thinking Superman is acting evil]. Superman is one of the most complex and nuanced characters in comic book history, but people overlook him because all they see is the boyscout persona from the 70s movies. A politically charged scenario like BvS, where Superman can truly show the struggles he'd face being amongst us, is exactly what I think people need to get invested into him again.

And the best thing about all of this is that DC's going for an entirely different approach to Marvel in that it's putting filmmakers before coherence to some overall tonal gauge for the entire universe. I think this kind of approach ultimately leads to better films in general [I offer Guardians and TWS as examples from Marvel's offerings]. So does Joss Whedon, as his entire exit from the MCU has been riddled with "Marvel didn't let me do anything ." DC's work is inherently going to be tonally diverse because of it; WB already stated that Shazam would be light hearted and even got Lord/Miller to write The Flash.

Spoiler

I still have yet to explain why I thought Age of Ultron was a 5/10 at best, should do that sometime to really get people angry

What are some comic series that exemplify the nuanced Superman you speak of? I haven't read many Supes comics and out of all the animated media I've seen from DC, the only storylines that ever made him seem interesting or nuanced were the Justice Lords style plots where his "boy scout persona" is well and truly thrown off and he is proven to be an extremely embattled person

There are much more, these are off the top of my head. Morrison, Johns, Moore pre-crazyfication, and Elliot Maggin are among the best writers you can think of for Supes.

For the Man who has Everything [JLU episode 2 was based on this]
Peace on Earth [hugely recommended if you're prepping for BvS, probably my favorite too because of the art]
Must There Be a Superman?
Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow
Birthright
Red Son [super duper interesting story, juxtaposing his character here to his normal character is great]
Superman Beyond [the framework for Final Crisis]
Final Crisis itself is basically a philosophical Superman story in disguise as a massive event
Earth One is a really interesting take on him
Also Morrison's Action Comics run with Superman

"Lex Luthor: Man of Steel"

IDK how I forgot this, based AIHT saved the day though

Quote from: Plotmaster on May 17, 2015, 02:58:51 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on May 17, 2015, 02:49:19 AM

What are some comic series that exemplify the nuanced Superman you speak of? I haven't read many Supes comics and out of all the animated media I've seen from DC, the only storylines that ever made him seem interesting or nuanced were the Justice Lords style plots where his "boy scout persona" is well and truly thrown off and he is proven to be an extremely embattled person

"Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" is my favorite Superman story.

"Kingdom Come", "Justice", and "For the Man Who Has Everything" are close behind, though you may have seen the animated adaption of that last one in the Justice League cartoon.

Quote

I think MoS and the BvS trailers are really interesting because we got a taste of Clark's nuance. He had to make a tough decision with Zod and after all the destruction wrought by Supes and his ilk

Upon reviewing the movie, very little damage was actually done by Clark himself. It was mostly Zod tossing him into shit, which is hardly his own fault.

Quote

during the movie it's easy to see why Lex might be extremely wary of Superman, his power, and his divisive public image (this is always a great version of Lex, antihero who thinks he's doing the right thing >>>> greedy mogul). It's a good reason for Batman to confront him too.

"Lex Luthor: Man of Steel" had this as its exact storyline. It's more of a Luthor story, obviously, but there's a lot of characterization for Superman involved as well - particularly at the end, with just two sentences from Superman himself.

Yeah I know saying Supes is responsible for the destruction is a bit wrong, but nonetheless he was a catalyst for the conflict and he had equal power to those who did lay waste to Metropolis, which should be more than enough to arouse Lex's suspicion.

I'll check out some of these comics. Gonna eat up all the DC content I can before this drops next year.

You can watch KC right here and now if you'd like.

That being said, I have equal respect for both Marvel and DC. I'm no fanboy. I just think it's fucking hilarious that Marvel gets a pass for pushing out half thought out mediocre movies year after year and the very second DC hops onto the live action movie thing they get absolutely canned. After one fucking movie.

You people are so goddamn confusing.

To be fair, MoS wasn't exactly executed as well as it should have been. Although that being said, I definitely agree the DCCU is getting more flak than it should be.

Think of it this way. Marvel was bankrupt and getting panned left right and center by critics in the mid 90s. It was only in the early 2000s with the release of Spider-Man and X-Men movies it began to pick up traction. DC is nowhere near in that kind of position, and there's every possibility DoJ could be its saving grace.