LMFAO THEISTS: 1, ATHEISTS: 0

Elai · February 12, 2016, 06:45:43 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 06:43:45 PM

what

you can't just "believe" something arbitrarily, it has to meet your standards of evidence

challengerX · February 12, 2016, 06:48:24 PM

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A salt rifle · February 12, 2016, 06:49:41 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 06:45:43 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 06:43:45 PM
what

you can't just "believe" something arbitrarily, it has to meet your standards of evidence

Yeah, that standard of evidence for Christianity is God - it's unarguable and absolute.

Whether or not you accept it as a foundation for evidence is a dilemma you have to solve yourself.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 06:51:30 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 12, 2016, 06:48:24 PM

That's the point of religion. It's based entirely on "faith".

then no one who is religious believes that God exists? they just "wager" that he does?

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 06:54:54 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 06:51:30 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 12, 2016, 06:48:24 PM
That's the point of religion. It's based entirely on "faith".
then no one who is religious believes that God exists? they just "wager" that he does?

No, they believe in a higher power based on their faith alone. You mentioned how belief isn't arbitrary, and that it's based on your personal standards of evidence--but one's "personal" standards of evidence are, by definition, arbitrary. Because there is only one objective standard of evidence--it's not a matter of personal whim.

Some people probably wager it, but that's certainly not the majority.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 06:55:06 PM

Quote from: isisaacdead on February 12, 2016, 06:49:41 PM

Yeah, that standard of evidence for Christianity is God - it's unarguable and absolute.

what about "God" is inarguable and absolute? that he exists?

Elai · February 12, 2016, 06:58:46 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 06:54:54 PM

No, they believe in a higher power based on their faith alone. You mentioned how belief isn't arbitrary, and that it's based on your personal standards of evidence--but one's "personal" standards of evidence are, by definition, arbitrary. Because there is only one objective standard of evidence--it's not a matter of personal whim.

and what if one's personal standard of evidence is that of the "one objective standard" you speak of? at that point belief is no longer a choice

and even if it wasn't, i still don't think people choose their standards of evidence.

A salt rifle · February 12, 2016, 07:03:52 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 06:55:06 PM

Quote from: isisaacdead on February 12, 2016, 06:49:41 PM
Yeah, that standard of evidence for Christianity is God - it's unarguable and absolute.

what about "God" is inarguable and absolute? that he exists?

Yes.

As it is stated in the Bible - and the Bible is absolute since it's God's word. It's circular logic and you'll just have to accept it, which will be the most difficult thing for you to do.

I mean, Rocket could do a far better job than me in explaining how the reasoning works. I'm not even religious, lol.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:05:43 PM

Quote from: isisaacdead on February 12, 2016, 07:03:52 PM

Yes.

As it is stated in the Bible - and the Bible is absolute since it's God's word. It's circular logic and you'll just have to accept it, which will be the most difficult thing for you to do.

and what if i'm incapable of doing that

what then

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 07:06:33 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 06:58:46 PM

and what if one's personal standard of evidence is that of the "one objective standard" you speak of? at that point belief is no longer a choice

Sure, but the point is that we have no epistemological way of grasping that standard--we can only make assumptions based on what we think we know. Therefore, you can choose to believe anything you want, whether it's accurate and inaccurate--and nobody will epistemically be able to tell you otherwise.

A salt rifle · February 12, 2016, 07:10:28 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 07:05:43 PM

Quote from: isisaacdead on February 12, 2016, 07:03:52 PM
Yes.

As it is stated in the Bible - and the Bible is absolute since it's God's word. It's circular logic and you'll just have to accept it, which will be the most difficult thing for you to do.

and what if i'm incapable of doing that

what then

Can't become Christian then, I guess.

If I may ask, what's the reason you want to become Christian?

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 07:12:14 PM

I mean, if you're gonna fuck around with religion, at least look into Buddhism or something...

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:12:24 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 07:06:33 PM

Therefore, you can choose to believe anything you want, whether it's accurate and inaccurate--and nobody will epistemically be able to tell you otherwise.

i'm not capable of believing that the christian god exists under my current standards of evidence. it's not a choice. i have every reason to be religious, i'm just... not able to be.

i hope i'm making sense, this is all really fresh to me and i haven't put as much time into it as i'd like to.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:17:12 PM

Quote from: isisaacdead on February 12, 2016, 07:10:28 PM

Can't become Christian then, I guess.

yeah that's where i'm currently at.

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If I may ask, what's the reason you want to become Christian?

it's kind of a long story, but to summarise, social and mental health benefit

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:17:54 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 07:12:14 PM

I mean, if you're gonna fuck around with religion, at least look into Buddhism or something...

religious buddhism is not my thing

A salt rifle · February 12, 2016, 07:19:15 PM

Yeah sorry, I wasn't really helping you at all with decision-making, huh?

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 07:19:55 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 07:12:24 PM

i'm not capable of believing that the christian god exists under my current standards of evidence. it's not a choice.

You choose to have those standards of evidence--Christians choose to have faith. You can also choose to treat God as an exception to the rule--but I wouldn't really see the point in that.

Faith is the only leg that theists stand on, and it's a pretty flimsy one. Still yet, there are theists out there who have the same exact standards of evidence as you do, but they simply don't apply it to their god, because they have what they call "faith." And as far as I can tell, that's their choice. You either choose to have faith, or you don't.

If they talk about how they feel god in their hearts, they are choosing to buy into that sensation.
If they talk about how they personally saw god, they are choosing to buy into that sensation.

Just because it's not necessarily a consciously made decision doesn't make it any less of a decision.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:19:57 PM

Quote from: isisaacdead on February 12, 2016, 07:19:15 PM

Yeah sorry, I wasn't really helping you at all with decision-making, huh?

no, but you're pretty much the first (presumably) atheist person i've bounced my thoughts off of

good to know i'm not as crazy as i thought

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:24:31 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 07:19:55 PM

You choose to have those standards of evidence--Christians choose to have faith. You can also choose to have treat God as an exception to the rule--but I wouldn't really see the point in that.

i never chose to have these standards, though. i'd give them up if i could.

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You either choose to have faith, or you don't.

this seems an awful lot like a wager to me

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Just because it's not necessarily a consciously made decision doesn't make it any less of a decision.

...what's the point of making that distinction

if someone isn't consciously making a decision, i'd hardly call it a decision. their biology/psychology chose for them.

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 07:31:30 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 07:24:31 PM

i never chose to have these standards, though. i'd give them up if i could.

So why can't you?
Because you view it as the only option?

Could that be because you CHOOSE to believe it's the only option?

The other option, as has been said, is faith--which you are "not-choosing" (apparently) to not have.

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this seems an awful lot like a wager to me

It's not, though. I'm not even sure how you'd arrive at that conclusion.

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...what's the point of making that distinction

if someone isn't consciously making a decision, i'd hardly call it a decision. their biology/psychology chose for them.

Your "biology/psychology" (I'd just call this your brain) chooses everything. That's all you are, is a brain.

Your brain makes decisions consciously, subconsciously, and unconsciously. There is no "you"--we're just brains.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:37:44 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 07:31:30 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 07:24:31 PM
i never chose to have these standards, though. i'd give them up if i could.
So why can't you?
Because you view it as the only option?

i don't know. i just can't bring myself to believe things that i'd have to to be religious. i can maybe say i do -- but in my mind, i just don't. and if a god did exist, he'd know my mind.

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It's not, though. I'm not even sure how you'd arrive at that conclusion.

belief = conclusions with evidence
faith = conclusions without evidence

you're betting that god exists without evidence. a wager.

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Your "biology/psychology" (I'd just call this your brain) chooses everything. That's all you are, is a brain.

Your brain makes decisions consciously, subconsciously, and unconsciously. There is no "you"--we're just brains.

so then, again, it's not a choice. there are no choices.

RomanGladiator · February 12, 2016, 07:42:51 PM

Being religious = thinking your group is better than the rest. Christianity, Islam, Judaism...they all cannot be true together, it is one or the other. One would violate the "canon" of the other. I wouldn't even consider myself an atheist, just a person that observes things and applies what is real. Religion is a bad thing in my opinion.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:44:09 PM

good for you

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 07:45:22 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 07:37:44 PM

you're betting that god exists without evidence. a wager.

That's not really what a wager is, but whatever. Wagers are more akin to agnosticism--but most people who identify as Christians, you'll find, are not agnostic. They claim to know for certain that there is a god.

Those who make wagers cannot be certain.

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so then, again, it's not a choice. there are no choices.

We live in a deterministic universe, so yeah. But the deterministic nature of the universe doesn't have any bearing on our ability to make what we perceive as choices. We choose everything and nothing all at once.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:50:30 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 07:45:22 PM

That's not really what a wager is, but whatever. Wagers are more akin to agnosticism--but most people who identify as Christians, you'll find, are not agnostic. They claim to know for certain that there is a god.

putting all your eggs in the Christianity basket even though there's no evidence to support what it claims to be on the chance that that god exists seems like a wager to me

which is obviously not something people who rely on the faith argument are going to admit, but...

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We live in a deterministic universe, so yeah. But the deterministic nature of the universe doesn't have any bearing on our ability to make what we perceive as choices. We choose everything and nothing all at once.

i don't see how you can consider religious belief as a choice that we perceive to have control over, then

Elai · February 12, 2016, 07:57:01 PM

let me ask you this, verb

are you capable of believing Christianity's God exists

RomanGladiator · February 12, 2016, 08:00:14 PM

Christianity isn't canon, they got rid of all the old EU.

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 08:00:53 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 07:57:01 PM

let me ask you this, verb

are you capable of believing Christianity's God exists

Yes; I just don't.

Elai · February 12, 2016, 08:02:23 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 12, 2016, 08:00:53 PM

Yes; I just don't.

tell me the secret, then. how do i do it.

no sarcasm here -- i need to know

Verbatim · February 12, 2016, 08:21:08 PM

Quote from: Eli on February 12, 2016, 08:02:23 PM

tell me the secret, then. how do i do it.

no sarcasm here -- i need to know

I simply recognize the Socratic truth that the only thing that I know for sure is that I know nothing. Everything I think I know could be completely wrong--from atheism to veganism to anti-natalism. Practically nothing is incontrovertibly true, as humans are incapable of proving anything on an epistemological level.

I choose to have my beliefs, however, because I believe they are logically sound. But I could easily choose to just drop all of that and become a meat-eating, baby-wanting Christian tomorrow.

How? I don't really know how to describe it. I possess the ability to just close my eyes and make it so, because, as a brain, I'm in control of what I do and what I believe (barring the deterministic nature of the universe).

But I think once you recognize that we will never fully grasp the truth about the universe, there is nothing that should impel you to think about the universe in one way or another other than your own interpretations. That's all I can really say.