Can I say something about terrorism?

 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
If a mod wants to move this to Serious, please feel free. I'm putting it here simply because this is where other 9/11 threads have been, and I'd like it to reach a relatively larger audience.

So, there seems to be a wide range of people, on here and in real life, who seem inexorably quick to blame the West for the actions of these Islamists. It seems as if we've lost some sort of sense of proportion. Have we committed crimes? Sure, things like torture, the horrors of Abu Ghraib, Clinton's bombing of Sudanese pharmaceutical centres and various actions in Viet Nam can all be counted as criminal. It's a shame that these people haven't, in a lot of cases, been held to account.

In the same box, however, lie the Islamists. I'm sure U.S. foreign policy is destructive and provocative, nobody dare doubt it. However, we're talking about the people who've said they'll never forgive the West for not allowing Indonesia to commit genocide in East Timor, and for helping East Timor - predominantly catholic - become independent.

These are pretty much the same people who, barely even a month ago, tried to commit genocide against the Yazidis and who are currently fighting the Kurdish Peshmerga. Genocide: the destruction of a people. These are also essentially the same people who told Thomas Jefferson that they could kidnap and attack American sailors because the Koran allows it.

I'm not going to argue that their beliefs are the main cause of their behaviour; it isn't. A big part of it is to do with the condition of the Middle East, the community offered by such an extremist group, some psychological factors and the sense of justification from having a holy book behind them. Whether or not America is to blame for the rise of these people is largely irrelevant from a perspective of "What do we do?" They're here, they've been here for a while and these people will not stop until they accomplish their aims.

Be that genocide, the establishment of a caliphate or the destruction of the West. The implication that, had we just been nicer to them, it'd all be okay, is as anodyne as it is banal. Whatever their justifications or their morality, the consequences are the same, and they would limit the freedoms history and progress has brought us. And I will not bend my knee to Fascism hiding behind a holy war.

Fuck the implication that the West should stay out of it, and fuck anybody who blames the West for the actions of these psychopathic crusaders.

Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 01:55:14 PM by Meta Cognition


 
Naru
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The Rage....
Yes.


 
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Fucking right, man.


Solonoid | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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The Jews did 9/11 for insurance money and to create discord in the middle east allowing them to expand their territory, and the US government covered it up.

Death to Israel.


 
gats
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You will find out who you are not a thousand times, before you ever discover who you are. I hope you find peace in yourself and learn to love instead of hate.
Pretty much agree with everything you said, if the West stays out of the Middle East it'll only provide IS and other militant groups with the chance to grow. However whether or not 9/11 was actually carried out by some ragheads from the desert is for a different thread.


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
However whether or not 9/11 was actually carried out by some ragheads from the desert is for a different thread.
Doesn't matter where they were from; we know their ideology.


 
gats
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You will find out who you are not a thousand times, before you ever discover who you are. I hope you find peace in yourself and learn to love instead of hate.
However whether or not 9/11 was actually carried out by some ragheads from the desert is for a different thread.
Doesn't matter where they were from; we know their ideology.
I meant it in regards to that 9/11 may have been an inside job carried out the US themselves. I'm not completely made up on who it was and I never will be, but I have my reasons.


Solonoid | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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However whether or not 9/11 was actually carried out by some ragheads from the desert is for a different thread.
Doesn't matter where they were from; we know their ideology.
The boldness of your point shall dispel my levity on the matter.

This is our world, and in an age where it can be travelled so quickly, our responsibility to oversee it cannot be hindered by mere miles. However, I do not believe that this point has anything to do with 9/11, so by pairing the two you set yourself up for attacks on your valid point with attacks on the less important of the two.

I am of the honest opinion that Jews executed 9/11, but you should not let this excellent point you have built be dissuaded by that fact. Furthermore, I don't believe that we should have to use terrorism as a means to justify talking about it. If we honestly believe that we should be in the middle east, then we shouldn't wait until 9/11 or some other event to start bringing it up.


 
Sandtrap
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You know, there's something that comes to mind here when I read this. And it's kind ofhard to put a starting point down on it. But let's see if I can. It has to do with cause and effect in a way. What I mean is, if you swapped something out of time, and event, or a specific person, something else would eventually step in to fill it's shoes.

If something exists, anything at all, then that means it will exist again. It will happen again, at some point in time. For example, let's take Hitler, since he's such a good person to hate on. Let's just say we knocked him over and out of the equation suddenly. Maybe Germany wouldn't have been all dammicky for a second world war. Maybe they would have. But in all likelyhood, another person, somewhere, at some point in time would have likely stepped in and the events that occured because of Hitler would play out, albiet in a somewhat different form.

This is why I don't ever "hate" political figures, or even events, because if that person suddenly went missing, or that event never happened, regardless, eventually something would fill it's shoes and I would hate them all the same.

So in this point, you are right. Maybe the West not being dammicky would have changed things. It might not have. But, in some form or another, this conflict would have arisen just the same, albeit with a few details in different order.

But, it also raises another point. People can blame the states for what happened. But that doesn't change the here and now. And it never will. So rather then waste time and potential efforts on energy on laying blame, it's best to just move onwards and forwards with the present.


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Can't play nice, you don't get to play.

I'm wondering if I should make this my motto in issues like this. I find it sick that someone can be prepared to strap bombs to them self and kill as many people as they can or behead others. I think it's also pretty sick that people can forcefully remove inhabitants of a country and kill those who try to fight for their rights.

I don't think it's possible to avoid conflict in these situations. Maybe in Israel's case. (That's what I was referring to in the second example). And I usually try not to support war and stuff. I don't think I ever will but maybe it's a necessary evil? Someone has to be willing to stand up to an injustice and be willing to fight against it when it comes down to it. I've been wondering about it a bit lately and maybe I've been unfair in grouping soldiers or military personnel as vicious cunts. If it's a necessary evil then maybe judging based off of individual actions and motives is the best way. At the same time, though they know the consequences and the gravity of their actions. In any case, they better check their motives, humble themselves and know why their country is fighting and how they are fighting.

TL; DR mixed feelings, Kiyo pls don't bite my head off.


Reciffo_Smmoc | Ascended Unstoppable!
 
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