idk who taught you to debate but i don't think you're gonna win any hearts or minds by insulting people
Quote from: Tsirist on October 24, 2015, 11:45:47 AMHow about we keep reproducing then?How about no, because that's evil and stupid?QuoteOur world continues to improve.It's not improving fast enough. The world needs to be perfect yesterday. That is the only acceptable rate of improvement. QuoteWe may one day reach that 100% chance and that perfect life, whatever that means for you.It means no suffering or pain, ever. No discomfort. No negative sensation.This is called "not having been born at all," and it's very achievable.If we stop having kids.
How about we keep reproducing then?
Our world continues to improve.
We may one day reach that 100% chance and that perfect life, whatever that means for you.
Quote from: Tsirist on October 24, 2015, 11:47:42 AMWe all endure pain, Verb, yet most of us are happy. How does pain preclude happiness in that sense at all?Because people are stupid. Most human beings haven't figured out that there's no God yet, for one. They think that when they die, they're gonna go to heaven, so whatever adversity they endure in their lives won't matter.Take that away from them--what do they think of life now?
We all endure pain, Verb, yet most of us are happy. How does pain preclude happiness in that sense at all?
Quote from: Tsirist on October 24, 2015, 11:47:42 AMidk who taught you to debate but i don't think you're gonna win any hearts or minds by insulting peopleThis isn't a formal debate. I see no use in treating philosophies that I consider evil with any amount of respect whatsoever if we're in a public, informal setting.
So you expect us to go from nothing to perfection in no time at all?
You realize that for an intelligent being to consider this, that intelligent being must first exist right?
imo "happiness > nothing" is self-evident
Bad grammarAnecdotal evidenceProbably has bad hygiene 0/10
well i mean i see no god but i'm feeling pretty alright so that's one personi'm in a relationship with someone who sees no god but must be feeling alright because's she's still alive so that's twoi don't see your point here
Essentially, Verb's idea of ethical growth of a species is absolutely impossible, as suffering in life is inevitable, ergo all forms of sentient life that can experience suffering should not exist nor should they ever thus eliminating the 'ethics' of the situation entirely (no sentience = no ethics) which I find to be a peculiar conundrum.
Quote from: Tsirist on October 24, 2015, 11:55:04 AMSo you expect us to go from nothing to perfection in no time at all?No, I don't "expect" that at all. I'm telling you that it would be the only way to make the imposition of life permissible in any way. Life has to be perfect--if life isn't perfect, then what right do you have to impose it on anybody?QuoteYou realize that for an intelligent being to consider this, that intelligent being must first exist right?You realize that I've been an ant-natalist for almost four years, and by now, I probably would have encountered this shit argument, right?The fact that the person doesn't exist yet is exactly why we don't have the right to create them. We can't assume that they'd be okay with existing.Quoteimo "happiness > nothing" is self-evidentThat would work if life was pure happiness. But it isn't.
How bad does life have to get for you to say, "Okay, life sucks, let's stop having kids."How many more wars do we have to go through? How many more holocausts?
Quote from: DemonicChronic on October 24, 2015, 12:07:48 PMEssentially, Verb's idea of ethical growth of a species is absolutely impossible, as suffering in life is inevitable, ergo all forms of sentient life that can experience suffering should not exist nor should they ever thus eliminating the 'ethics' of the situation entirely (no sentience = no ethics) which I find to be a peculiar conundrum.Basically. You know, I appreciate it when someone shows they understand my position enough that they can write up a little synopsis of it.Sometimes I just get tired of explaining the same shit.
Quote from: Tsirist on October 24, 2015, 11:56:15 AMwell i mean i see no god but i'm feeling pretty alright so that's one personi'm in a relationship with someone who sees no god but must be feeling alright because's she's still alive so that's twoi don't see your point hereYou're "pretty alright".That's a far cry from "perfectly happy".
Quote from: eggsalad on October 24, 2015, 09:15:46 AMWanting genetic survival is as egotistical as you can get.Not really, unless your reasoning behind it is egotistical. But wanting children is not egotistical at it's base.
Wanting genetic survival is as egotistical as you can get.
Quote from: Verbatim on October 24, 2015, 12:09:43 PMQuote from: DemonicChronic on October 24, 2015, 12:07:48 PMEssentially, Verb's idea of ethical growth of a species is absolutely impossible, as suffering in life is inevitable, ergo all forms of sentient life that can experience suffering should not exist nor should they ever thus eliminating the 'ethics' of the situation entirely (no sentience = no ethics) which I find to be a peculiar conundrum.Basically. You know, I appreciate it when someone shows they understand my position enough that they can write up a little synopsis of it.Sometimes I just get tired of explaining the same shit.I argue with one of your fellow antinatalists all the time; I've heard all of this before. Maybe I don't understand your position, and perhaps you do not understand mine . . . if you tire of dialogue, you are welcome to cease in your participation.
Quote from: Verbatim on October 24, 2015, 12:02:57 PMHow bad does life have to get for you to say, "Okay, life sucks, let's stop having kids."How many more wars do we have to go through? How many more holocausts?Nuclear holocaust.
Well, I'll talk about it, but again--if you're gonna discuss this sort of thing with me, you have to be prepared to take a little bit of heat. Especially if I think you say something really dumb. Getting offended by what I say is fine, and it's something that I need to work on in terms of being a more agreeable person, but let's cut this idea that I'm not allowed to get angry when someone supports something I consider evil. All right?
Quote from: Korra on October 24, 2015, 12:21:33 PMQuote from: Verbatim on October 24, 2015, 12:02:57 PMHow bad does life have to get for you to say, "Okay, life sucks, let's stop having kids."How many more wars do we have to go through? How many more holocausts?Nuclear holocaust.That would probably be the point of no return for me as well.
Quote from: Verbatim on October 24, 2015, 12:27:40 PMQuote from: Korra on October 24, 2015, 12:21:33 PMQuote from: Verbatim on October 24, 2015, 12:02:57 PMHow bad does life have to get for you to say, "Okay, life sucks, let's stop having kids."How many more wars do we have to go through? How many more holocausts?Nuclear holocaust.That would probably be the point of no return for me as well.Yup. Luckily it hasn't happened yet, our world leaders haven't reached that point of stupidity.
Quote from: Korra on October 24, 2015, 12:29:41 PMQuote from: Verbatim on October 24, 2015, 12:27:40 PMQuote from: Korra on October 24, 2015, 12:21:33 PMQuote from: Verbatim on October 24, 2015, 12:02:57 PMHow bad does life have to get for you to say, "Okay, life sucks, let's stop having kids."How many more wars do we have to go through? How many more holocausts?Nuclear holocaust.That would probably be the point of no return for me as well.Yup. Luckily it hasn't happened yet, our world leaders haven't reached that point of stupidity.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Arkhipov
life is perfect, verb. at least, it is in my eyes.[snip]
Yet you use such a poor, unrelated counterargument: that beings must first be consulted before anything concerning them is done. Yet society operates on assumptions about what other people want all the time. Society wouldn't exist otherwise
And again, life is clearly not "pure happiness" (depending on how you look at it), but most people have more happiness than suffering.
Nah, I don't think there's a set number of people dying that is perfect. I don't think life is about some sort of outcome or end-game, as you put it, so the specific numbers are irrelevant so long as we do our best to preserve the process.
Such an observation that they are biased towards their own lives suggests to me that we can in fact make the assumption that life is, on average, worth living to those who live it.
What strikes me as odd about the public perception of anti-natalism is that they treat it as some edgy, hipster, new age bullshit that started in the dark bowels of the internet.When in reality, people have been cursing fate since the very start of critical thought. Ever read Ecclesiastes? Best part of the Bible.
Immortality vs Having Kids
