i personally commend vegans and vegetarians

Verbatim · August 18, 2015, 12:12:42 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on August 18, 2015, 12:05:13 AM

No, you're making it sound like I'd have no objection if her admission was unconditional. The only difference is I wouldn't have been prompted to challenge her on it if it was.

You seem to be of the view that we should commend people for having the "courage" (or something) to admit to their transgressions. And I don't agree if they're only doing it to make themselves feel more comfortable about them.

I'm not commending anyone--I'm just saying, the point at which someone does admit to their transgressions is the point at which discussion should end. There's no real need to "challenge" anyone, just because they failed to meet your stringent criteria for concessions.

You've always had this do-or-die mentality when it comes to the philosophy, and I never liked that. I know from experience that "challenging" people is only going to cause them to become frustrated with you, and even less likely to cooperate with you. It's not great for the cause.

There's a point where you ought to leave it alone.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · August 18, 2015, 12:15:02 AM

Quote from: A Cheese Potato on August 18, 2015, 12:11:13 AM

cmon guys we were like peas in a pod earlier

It made me happy as a clam to see chally and Verb in the same circlejerk.

Verbatim · August 18, 2015, 12:16:03 AM

Quote from: Prime Quinx on August 18, 2015, 12:10:33 AM

You could always alter your taste instead of straight up destroying it. It would be great if fats didn't taste good.

ah... i wonder how much research has been put into that

🍁 Aria 🔮 · August 18, 2015, 12:28:42 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on August 18, 2015, 12:16:03 AM

Quote from: Prime Quinx on August 18, 2015, 12:10:33 AM
You could always alter your taste instead of straight up destroying it. It would be great if fats didn't taste good.
ah... i wonder how much research has been put into that

"Miracle berries" make everything taste sweet, so it shouldn't be that hard to find out how to make the effect more practical to achieve, and for a longer duration.

Pendulate · August 18, 2015, 02:21:22 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on August 18, 2015, 12:12:42 AM

the point at which someone does admit to their transgressions is the point at which discussion should end.

Then what's the point of having a discussion in the first place? Why should getting someone to admit their transgressions (while also admitting to no desire to change) be the goal of an interchange?

(Because to me that sounds like close to the worst outcome a discussion could have)

Quote

There's no real need to "challenge" anyone, just because they failed to meet your stringent criteria for concessions.

I wasn't doing that, though. I was pointing out a fallacy I assumed they weren't aware of making. You point out fallacies all the time, so I think you're failing to see the connection here.

Quote

You've always had this do-or-die mentality when it comes to the philosophy

I have no idea what that means. Gonna need an example.

Quote

I know from experience that "challenging" people is only going to cause them to become frustrated with you, and even less likely to cooperate with you. It's not great for the cause.

Is this a view you've only recently adopted? Because you've been quite happy to challenge users in other vegan-related threads.

Pendulate · August 18, 2015, 02:25:16 AM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on August 18, 2015, 12:08:58 AM

Jeez guy, I already said that I wasn't trying to justify my nature just because I was human. I'm flawed because being human is flawed, I can't really go anywhere else from there.

That's fine -- I just don't see any reason to add that embellishment.

TB · August 18, 2015, 02:48:20 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on August 18, 2015, 12:12:42 AM

You've always had this do-or-die mentality when it comes to the philosophy, and I never liked that.

YouTube

Spoiler

jk

Sandtrap · August 18, 2015, 02:51:06 AM

I dun goofed/ignore

Elai · August 18, 2015, 04:44:52 AM

So a few things to say after reading this thread:

1. Nature isn't law, that's a stupid argument.
2. Being a Vegan is FUCKING easy, saying "Vegans have so much willpower" is stupid because, again, it's fucking easy.

I mean, for me, I don't want to be a vegan (or an antinatalist). I fucking love cheese, and have always entertained the idea of multiple kids since I myself was one.

IF you can prove to me that eating animals is justifiable in an ethical manner, I'll change today (same goes for producing life). It's just that thus far, no one has been able to successfully convince me of either.

A Cheese Potato · August 18, 2015, 04:59:40 AM

now you're just egging them on

True Turquoise · August 18, 2015, 05:03:05 AM

Quote from: A Cheese Potato on August 18, 2015, 04:59:40 AM

now you're just egging them on

I'm going to punch you

DAS B00T x2 · August 18, 2015, 05:12:16 AM

Quote from: True Turquoise on August 18, 2015, 05:03:05 AM

Quote from: A Cheese Potato on August 18, 2015, 04:59:40 AM
now you're just egging them on
I'm going to punch you

Beet 'em good, boy.

More Than Mortal · August 18, 2015, 05:23:00 AM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on August 17, 2015, 12:37:46 PM

being in college and being relatively poor in a small ass hick town there aren't a lot of those options.

This is basically going to be my problem in six weeks' time.

More Than Mortal · August 18, 2015, 05:27:27 AM

Quote from: ॐ Nuka on August 17, 2015, 04:07:52 PM

And yes, "muh canines" is a perfectly valid reason. Those teeth are specifically made to chew meat.

You know how rare meat was to prehistoric man? It was a thing eaten fortnightly, not every day as most people currently do.

Besides, we're a lot closer to herbivores than we are to omnivores; chimps, for instance, can eat meat raw. The only reason we have a mildly omnivorous capacity is probably because it was helpful to our evolution. People who use the omnivore argument should practice what they preach, and cut their meat consumption right down.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · August 18, 2015, 05:30:00 AM

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More Than Mortal · August 18, 2015, 05:34:38 AM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on August 18, 2015, 05:30:00 AM

To those saying it doesn't require will power to not eat meat. Is it not our genetic programming to eat meat? And is it not hard to reject our genetic programming? Maybe that's ambiguous and differs from person to person. Hm maybe 'will power' is just the wrong term.

The whole concept of "will power" seems redundant anyway. Saying it's easy to be a vegan is like saying it's easy to be a psychopath. . . Like, yeah it is for some people, just like it's easy to quit smoking for some people. Nobody has free will, and everything about you is predetermined. "Moral transgressions" only exist in an impersonal, non-responsible way wherein the person has some kind of no-fault deficiency which stops them from behaving as they "should".

DAS B00T x2 · August 18, 2015, 05:57:05 AM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on August 18, 2015, 05:30:00 AM

To those saying it doesn't require will power to not eat meat. Is it not our genetic programming to eat meat? And is it not hard to reject our genetic programming? Maybe that's ambiguous and differs from person to person. Hm maybe 'will power' is just the wrong term. A moral and ethical self discipline might be a better term?

It's in my genes to fight the Romans and rape Slavic bitches.
You don't see me doing that.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · August 18, 2015, 05:57:42 AM

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DAS B00T x2 · August 18, 2015, 06:14:04 AM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on August 18, 2015, 05:57:42 AM

Quote from: DAS WAIFUMEISTER x2 on August 18, 2015, 05:57:05 AM
Quote from: SoporificSlash on August 18, 2015, 05:30:00 AM
To those saying it doesn't require will power to not eat meat. Is it not our genetic programming to eat meat? And is it not hard to reject our genetic programming? Maybe that's ambiguous and differs from person to person. Hm maybe 'will power' is just the wrong term. A moral and ethical self discipline might be a better term?
It's in my genes to fight the Romans and rape Slavic bitches.
You don't see me doing that.
Wait. You don't?

too busy oppressing American women and holding on desperately to the last remnants of my glorious Patriarchy.

A Cheese Potato · August 18, 2015, 06:24:11 AM

Quote from: True Turquoise on August 18, 2015, 05:03:05 AM

Quote from: A Cheese Potato on August 18, 2015, 04:59:40 AM
now you're just egging them on
I'm going to punch you

no, please don't beet me

True Turquoise · August 18, 2015, 06:26:46 AM

Quote from: A Cheese Potato on August 18, 2015, 06:24:11 AM

Quote from: True Turquoise on August 18, 2015, 05:03:05 AM
Quote from: A Cheese Potato on August 18, 2015, 04:59:40 AM
now you're just egging them on
I'm going to punch you
no, please don't beet me

I'll mash you, potato

Mr. Psychologist · August 18, 2015, 06:28:41 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on August 18, 2015, 05:34:38 AM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on August 18, 2015, 05:30:00 AM
To those saying it doesn't require will power to not eat meat. Is it not our genetic programming to eat meat? And is it not hard to reject our genetic programming? Maybe that's ambiguous and differs from person to person. Hm maybe 'will power' is just the wrong term.
The whole concept of "will power" seems redundant anyway. Saying it's easy to be a vegan is like saying it's easy to be a psychopath. . . Like, yeah it is for some people, just like it's easy to quit smoking for some people. Nobody has free will, and everything about you is predetermined. "Moral transgressions" only exist in an impersonal, non-responsible way wherein the person has some kind of no-fault deficiency which stops them from behaving as they "should".

^To add to that because it hit the nail on the head <.<

I don't find it difficult to not eat meat at all*, infact when I used to eat it at the behest of my mother I found that difficult. I imagine it's quite the opposite for some, they would find it difficult not to be able to shove burgers down their gullets 24/7 <.<

Really the hardest part about being one is when you go out to eat with your family and the menu has the same three dishes as every other restaurant on the planet when it comes to vegetarian food.

*Skipping the whole point about seafood because that makes things needlessly complicated here >_>

DAS B00T x2 · August 18, 2015, 07:04:08 AM

Quote from: ॐ Nuka on August 17, 2015, 08:57:59 PM

I guess one noticed the ॐ in my name.

I thought it was just decorative.
I didn't know you're actually a delusional Karma believer.

challengerX · August 18, 2015, 07:10:56 AM

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R o c k e t · August 18, 2015, 10:22:27 AM

I like mine medium-well

DAS B00T x2 · August 18, 2015, 10:23:27 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on August 18, 2015, 10:22:27 AM

I like mine medium-well

Just burn the thing, why don't ya?

R o c k e t · August 18, 2015, 10:24:55 AM

Quote from: DAS WAIFUMEISTER x2 on August 18, 2015, 10:23:27 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on August 18, 2015, 10:22:27 AM
I like mine medium-well
Just burn the thing, why don't ya?

ok

Verbatim · August 18, 2015, 11:00:58 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on August 18, 2015, 02:21:22 AM

Then what's the point of having a discussion in the first place?

To persuade someone into considering** a life of veganism, in this case. Considering the sheer number of variables there are in a discussion like this, there are numerous possible outcomes. You're upset because the outcome wasn't desirable for you. That's fine, but there's nothing you can do about it.

**Considering

Keyword. You're not looking to convert anyone--you're looking to get someone thinking about their life choices.

Quote

Why should getting someone to admit their transgressions (while also admitting to no desire to change) be the goal of an interchange?

Did I say that was the goal? No. All I'm saying is that, at that point, you've reached an impasse--one of many possible. I'm sure you're familiar with that term, but it means that you've come to a point where further discussion would be fruitless. It's the point at which you "agree to disagree".

Quote

(Because to me that sounds like close to the worst outcome a discussion could have)

Tough. That's life. You don't always get what you want. I don't think I need to tell you that, either.

Quote

Quote
You've always had this do-or-die mentality when it comes to the philosophy
I have no idea what that means. Gonna need an example.

It's not that complicated, is it? I could've said "my way or the highway" and you still might have been confused. This is what I'm talking about when I find you obtuse--you're just very slow to understand not only basic terms at times, but also... basic social etiquette. It makes me wonder how well you get along with people in real life.

Anyways... Nothing is ever "good enough" for you, that's what I'm saying. Korra could have said that she considered herself to be just another selfish cog in the machine who is completely owned by her psychological desire--a true statement, and one that not many people are willing to make, but you would still take issue with that, because she's blaming it on her psychology, and not her "self".

Newsflash--there is no self. There is brain function. There is a mind addicted to meat. Try asking someone who is addicted how much agency they have over their bodies. Admitting that your brain is an addicted mess is a completely noble thing to say, but it's not good enough for you, because... I don't know, vapid pettiness over semantics.

You're absolutely correct in saying that just because we live in a deterministic universe, that doesn't alleviate responsibility. We still have to do the right thing. But... we still live in a deterministic universe. If you fail to convince someone to do the right thing, that's just the way it is. Either try harder next time, or realize that you can't put someone into total submission by arguing. Veganism has to be a personal decision--ain't nobody's gonna become a vegan just because you got them to say, "I'm a piece of shit," in the precise way that you like it.

You're not gonna turn Korra into a vegan. It's a losing battle--stop fighting. Let her decide for herself what she does with her own life. If she chooses veganism down the line--great. If she doesn't, oh well. She's one person. It's a waste of precious time.

Quote

Is this a view you've only recently adopted?

Yes.

Verbatim · August 18, 2015, 11:10:25 AM

For a more concrete example of your mentality, there was that time back on Bnet before I was a vegan, where I said that, though I wasn't a vegan, I'm still a vegan advocate. I made it clear that, though my transgressions weren't absolved, I still recognize that I'm a thieving selfish asshole, but I'm all for future generations taking up veganism.

Your response to this was, bluntly, that I was useless to the cause. <_< You have a do-or-die mentality.
Be a piece of shit, or be a vegan. That's your rhetoric. That's your whole narrative.

I say fuck that. I say, as long as Korra's an advocate (which I'm sure she is, given her thoughts on the subject), it doesn't really matter to me a whole lot if she actually is a vegan. In the sense that, well, maybe because of her influence, she could maybe inspire someone else to become a vegan. And that's good!

But it's not good enough for you, for... some petty semantic reason. Hmm.

So yeah, drop that mentality, if you want to avoid being, well, toxic to the cause. You have to be open.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · August 18, 2015, 11:18:05 AM

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