I've legitimately come to the conclusion that video games are possibly immoral

February 21, 2019, 09:20:22 AM

You all know my stance on AI, but I watched an episode of Black Mirror ("White Christmas", season 2 episode 4 if interested in watching) a few days ago that has pissed me off nonstop and has made me realize we need to stop making games or at least seriously curb how intelligent AI in games are allowed to be.

To sum it up, there's this company that provides a service for people but in reality the service is just slavery and torture. What happens is, rich people can choose to have, what they think is a Siri-esque housekeeping assistant that controls daily jobs like making toast, setting alarms, warming up the floor, and all that. I fucking hate the idea of Siri/Cortana so fucking much but w/e that's a topic for a different day. Anyway, what's fucked up is the process the company uses to make this AI. It's not just a chatterbot like we use. They put a thing in your head for a week that downloads your entire brain data, and gets to know you and how you like your toast being made, what time you like to wake up etc. But over that week it's not just finding preferences; it's literally making a digital copy of your brain. After the week, you go to a hospital to get the surgery to "get the implant removed" but what really happens is far more sinister.

YouTube

(convenient video that Netflix hasn't found and removed yet if you'd rather watch what happens)
They remove the cookie from your brain, sure. But they show us not what happens to the person who paid for this service, but what happens to the cookie and it's beyond fucked up. So you sit there and think you're getting the service, they put you under anesthesia and all that, but instead of going under, you feel everything. You get removed from your body, you see yourself, and at this point you're the cookie but it doesn't fucking matter, you are you for sure, 1000% you are you and sentient and conscious don't fucking debate me and say otherwise. You see yourself get taken away from your own body and brought back to your house to begin your slavery. A guy comes over and breaks you in and tells you your fate and that you're a fucking slave now because this company is beyond fucked up to even exist. Of course you're like "fuck that shit", why wouldn't you be? But no, to break the slave in they put her in an empty room for 3 weeks where she can't sleep or do anything. She doesn't need to eat, or drink water, she doesn't need a fucking thing but she's just there for all that time. She comes out and is defiant and says I'm not doing shit which is so respectable and sad, but this monster then puts her in that room for another 6 months. When she comes out she's beyond broken and just wants to do anything anything at all and accepts her life. That's the dude's job.

There's some bullshit later, and of course some different guy is stuck in the same cookie room where every minute lasts 1,000 years and he has to stay there for a year (you do the math) because of course why the fuck not just throw that in there too, but he's not an AI and that's beside the point I'm making.

People on 4chan making me so mad saying that the slave isn't real and that she's actually not self aware at all and that she's not actually going through that, she's an NPC no different than the NPCs I kill in video games. That's SO not true, because as we know the AI in video games currently aren't advanced enough to achieve self awareness yet.

But at some point in the future, they could be. At some point with our technological strides all these AI could be feeling this, who's to say otherwise? Where do we draw the fucking line? The cookie as presented in this story was sentient BEYOND A DOUBT so where do we draw the line?

I really don't want to play games anymore. I think it's wrong no matter how entertaining they might be. Just watch TV jesus christ. I'm so done with this entitled evil society we're in and you should be too.

big dog · February 21, 2019, 09:51:00 AM

Stop posting.

FatherlyNick - fuck putin · February 21, 2019, 10:29:57 AM

Quote from: Fedorekd on February 21, 2019, 09:51:00 AM

Stop posting.

This isn't Loaf tho.

Verbatim · February 21, 2019, 10:46:20 AM

Quote from: FatherlyNick on February 21, 2019, 10:29:57 AM

Quote from: Fedorekd on February 21, 2019, 09:51:00 AM
Stop posting.
This isn't Loaf tho.

loaf wouldn't post something this dumb

Verbatim · February 21, 2019, 11:08:32 AM

didn't you hate undertale

you know, an entire game about questioning the average player's tendency to mindlessly kill things in video games strictly for personal gain, with no regard for the implications or consequences of such wanton murder

you even insisted on playing genocide first because you hated and wanted to kill every single innocent character in the game, simply for being annoying or whatever, even though that specific route is intentionally designed to be an empty and soul-crushing experience in order to make a point about the viability of finding non-violent solutions to your problems (which wind up making everyone happier in the end)

i get that there's this understanding that AI is too simple right now for it to matter to you, but i just would've thought you would've appreciated a game with a message like that in the first place, regardless of how simple its AI is

Genghis Khan · February 21, 2019, 11:34:47 AM

The democrats are evil and dirty scumbags.

February 21, 2019, 02:05:33 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 21, 2019, 11:08:32 AM

didn't you hate undertale

you know, an entire game about questioning the average player's tendency to mindlessly kill things in video games strictly for personal gain, with no regard for the implications or consequences of such wanton murder

you even insisted on playing genocide first because you hated and wanted to kill every single innocent character in the game, simply for being annoying or whatever, even though that specific route is intentionally designed to be an empty and soul-crushing experience in order to make a point about the viability of finding non-violent solutions to your problems (which wind up making everyone happier in the end)

i get that there's this understanding that AI is too simple right now for it to matter to you, but i just would've thought you would've appreciated a game with a message like that in the first place, regardless of how simple its AI is

yeah and now I think it's fucked up I did that

not for the reasons the game wants me to though but whatever

Ingy · February 21, 2019, 02:05:43 PM

rC · February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM

This is bait right?

i am karjala takaisin · February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM

this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread

February 21, 2019, 10:51:00 PM

Quote from: rC on February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM

This is bait right?

Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM

this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread

Yeah my deeply held beliefs that I've talked about since forever are bait

gol back and look up where I freaked out about Tay, people

I have 0 reason to put forth effort into trolling a dead forum, I just wanted to share this topic you morons

Jono · February 22, 2019, 12:32:45 AM

Crazy how pixels are immoral

Ingy · February 22, 2019, 12:45:38 AM

Quote from: Jono on February 22, 2019, 12:32:45 AM

Crazy how pixels are immoral

All characters depicted are 18+

maverick · February 22, 2019, 01:50:06 AM

Quote from: Jono on February 22, 2019, 12:32:45 AM

Crazy how pixels are immoral

I think he's actually talking about the if statements and while loops being immoral.

Verbatim · February 22, 2019, 04:36:35 AM

Quote from: Jono on February 22, 2019, 12:32:45 AM

Crazy how pixels are immoral

there are a billion arguments for why class is wrong and stupid for this thread, and you managed to find the one that makes no sense at all

kill someone and then justify it by saying "wow crazy how atoms are immoral"

what the fuck does that even mean

Solonoid · February 22, 2019, 10:47:36 AM

Quote from: Genghis Khan on February 21, 2019, 11:34:47 AM

The democrats are evil and dirty scumbags.

somehow this is the most sane guy on the site right now

i am karjala takaisin · February 22, 2019, 05:32:42 PM

Quote from: Carmen on February 21, 2019, 10:51:00 PM

Quote from: rC on February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM
This is bait right?
Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread
Yeah my deeply held beliefs that I've talked about since forever are bait

gol back and look up where I freaked out about Tay, people

I have 0 reason to put forth effort into trolling a dead forum, I just wanted to share this topic you morons

I don't even understand the argument like, we should stop playing video games because theoretically in the future the NPCs might be sentient?

BaconShelf · February 23, 2019, 05:16:52 AM

Damn that sounds pretty cool

Maybe I should watch this show

Zonda · February 23, 2019, 08:00:07 AM

Ok but mindlessly stealing people’s coins as Mario in super smash bros. Is the biggest rush of serotonin

rC · February 25, 2019, 12:53:34 PM

Quote from: Carmen on February 21, 2019, 10:51:00 PM

Quote from: rC on February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM
This is bait right?
Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread
Yeah my deeply held beliefs that I've talked about since forever are bait

gol back and look up where I freaked out about Tay, people

I have 0 reason to put forth effort into trolling a dead forum, I just wanted to share this topic you morons

It isn't a serious issue though. AI isn't anywhere near being (and may never be) any kind of conscious. A much more interesting and real issue is the potential existential threat that a sufficiently advanced general AI might pose to us, but even then, no one is seriously considering that it might experience anything.

February 25, 2019, 04:21:12 PM

Quote from: rC on February 25, 2019, 12:53:34 PM

Quote from: Carmen on February 21, 2019, 10:51:00 PM
Quote from: rC on February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM
This is bait right?
Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread
Yeah my deeply held beliefs that I've talked about since forever are bait

gol back and look up where I freaked out about Tay, people

I have 0 reason to put forth effort into trolling a dead forum, I just wanted to share this topic you morons
It isn't a serious issue though. AI isn't anywhere near being (and may never be) any kind of conscious. A much more interesting and real issue is the potential existential threat that a sufficiently advanced general AI might pose to us, but even then, no one is seriously considering that it might experience anything.

Wrong in every fucking way, moron.

rC · February 25, 2019, 05:21:30 PM

Quote from: Carmen on February 25, 2019, 04:21:12 PM

Quote from: rC on February 25, 2019, 12:53:34 PM
Quote from: Carmen on February 21, 2019, 10:51:00 PM
Quote from: rC on February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM
This is bait right?
Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread
Yeah my deeply held beliefs that I've talked about since forever are bait

gol back and look up where I freaked out about Tay, people

I have 0 reason to put forth effort into trolling a dead forum, I just wanted to share this topic you morons
It isn't a serious issue though. AI isn't anywhere near being (and may never be) any kind of conscious. A much more interesting and real issue is the potential existential threat that a sufficiently advanced general AI might pose to us, but even then, no one is seriously considering that it might experience anything.
Wrong in every fucking way, moron.

Explain?

February 25, 2019, 06:14:21 PM

Quote from: rC on February 25, 2019, 05:21:30 PM

Quote from: Carmen on February 25, 2019, 04:21:12 PM
Quote from: rC on February 25, 2019, 12:53:34 PM
Quote from: Carmen on February 21, 2019, 10:51:00 PM
Quote from: rC on February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM
This is bait right?
Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread
Yeah my deeply held beliefs that I've talked about since forever are bait

gol back and look up where I freaked out about Tay, people

I have 0 reason to put forth effort into trolling a dead forum, I just wanted to share this topic you morons
It isn't a serious issue though. AI isn't anywhere near being (and may never be) any kind of conscious. A much more interesting and real issue is the potential existential threat that a sufficiently advanced general AI might pose to us, but even then, no one is seriously considering that it might experience anything.
Wrong in every fucking way, moron.
Explain?

Maybe read the OP?

MarKhan · February 25, 2019, 06:27:45 PM

Quote from: Carmen on February 25, 2019, 06:14:21 PM

Quote from: rC on February 25, 2019, 05:21:30 PM
Quote from: Carmen on February 25, 2019, 04:21:12 PM
Quote from: rC on February 25, 2019, 12:53:34 PM
Quote from: Carmen on February 21, 2019, 10:51:00 PM
Quote from: rC on February 21, 2019, 04:52:21 PM
This is bait right?
Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 21, 2019, 08:03:35 PM
this is like a classic 2012 class bait thread
Yeah my deeply held beliefs that I've talked about since forever are bait

gol back and look up where I freaked out about Tay, people

I have 0 reason to put forth effort into trolling a dead forum, I just wanted to share this topic you morons
It isn't a serious issue though. AI isn't anywhere near being (and may never be) any kind of conscious. A much more interesting and real issue is the potential existential threat that a sufficiently advanced general AI might pose to us, but even then, no one is seriously considering that it might experience anything.
Wrong in every fucking way, moron.
Explain?
Maybe read the OP?

Spoiler

i am karjala takaisin · February 25, 2019, 08:10:16 PM

ok lets be honest saying the most ridiculous bullshit possible like class is doing and then saying "Wrong in every fucking way, moron." to someone calmly refuting it is comedic genius. it's like something out of a skit

rC · February 26, 2019, 12:53:37 AM

Quote from: i am karjala takaisin on February 25, 2019, 08:10:16 PM

ok lets be honest saying the most ridiculous bullshit possible like class is doing and then saying "Wrong in every fucking way, moron." to someone calmly refuting it is comedic genius. it's like something out of a skit

nah it's gay

FatherlyNick - fuck putin · February 26, 2019, 05:33:59 AM

Class, I work with AI (Cognitive, IBM calls it)

Its nothing more than some fancy SQL queries into an [admittedly] large ass knowledge base.

You can use natural language to ask it questions and 90% of the time it answers very similar to how a person would.
It cannot however just 'think' on its own. It ingests information. Indexes it and forms patterns.

All of this is part of an algorithm that what was programmed into it by humans.
It can't exactly go ahead and rewrite itself - unless you count some optimisation routines it runs every now and then (once again, programmed by humans)

Now if you think that an algorithm that displays very clever characteristics during its execution is sentient and is alive - you will probably also marvel at mundane things like gravity pulling things down or how a piece of static art or even a book seems to make you feel things or take you places. Its nothing but your brain filling in the gaps where no actual gaps exist.

Now I need to go snort some more of this shit, I can feel going coherent again.

February 26, 2019, 07:39:52 AM

Quote from: FatherlyNick on February 26, 2019, 05:33:59 AM

Class, I work with AI (Cognitive, IBM calls it)

Its nothing more than some fancy SQL queries into an [admittedly] large ass knowledge base.

You can use natural language to ask it questions and 90% of the time it answers very similar to how a person would.
It cannot however just 'think' on its own. It ingests information. Indexes it and forms patterns.

All of this is part of an algorithm that what was programmed into it by humans.
It can't exactly go ahead and rewrite itself - unless you count some optimisation routines it runs every now and then (once again, programmed by humans)

Now if you think that an algorithm that displays very clever characteristics during its execution is sentient and is alive - you will probably also marvel at mundane things like gravity pulling things down or how a piece of static art or even a book seems to make you feel things or take you places. Its nothing but your brain filling in the gaps where no actual gaps exist.

Now I need to go snort some more of this shit, I can feel going coherent again.

Dude you are so wrong. Any form of advanced enough intelligence will form sentience and self-awareness. We need to draw the line NOW, before it's too late.

rC · February 26, 2019, 07:48:02 AM

Quote from: Carmen on February 26, 2019, 07:39:52 AM

Quote from: FatherlyNick on February 26, 2019, 05:33:59 AM
Class, I work with AI (Cognitive, IBM calls it)

Its nothing more than some fancy SQL queries into an [admittedly] large ass knowledge base.

You can use natural language to ask it questions and 90% of the time it answers very similar to how a person would.
It cannot however just 'think' on its own. It ingests information. Indexes it and forms patterns.

All of this is part of an algorithm that what was programmed into it by humans.
It can't exactly go ahead and rewrite itself - unless you count some optimisation routines it runs every now and then (once again, programmed by humans)

Now if you think that an algorithm that displays very clever characteristics during its execution is sentient and is alive - you will probably also marvel at mundane things like gravity pulling things down or how a piece of static art or even a book seems to make you feel things or take you places. Its nothing but your brain filling in the gaps where no actual gaps exist.

Now I need to go snort some more of this shit, I can feel going coherent again.
Dude you are so wrong. Any form of advanced enough intelligence will form sentience and self-awareness. We need to draw the line NOW, before it's too late.

NOW

FatherlyNick - fuck putin · February 26, 2019, 07:58:52 AM

Quote from: Carmen on February 26, 2019, 07:39:52 AM

Quote from: FatherlyNick on February 26, 2019, 05:33:59 AM
Class, I work with AI (Cognitive, IBM calls it)

Its nothing more than some fancy SQL queries into an [admittedly] large ass knowledge base.

You can use natural language to ask it questions and 90% of the time it answers very similar to how a person would.
It cannot however just 'think' on its own. It ingests information. Indexes it and forms patterns.

All of this is part of an algorithm that what was programmed into it by humans.
It can't exactly go ahead and rewrite itself - unless you count some optimisation routines it runs every now and then (once again, programmed by humans)

Now if you think that an algorithm that displays very clever characteristics during its execution is sentient and is alive - you will probably also marvel at mundane things like gravity pulling things down or how a piece of static art or even a book seems to make you feel things or take you places. Its nothing but your brain filling in the gaps where no actual gaps exist.

Now I need to go snort some more of this shit, I can feel going coherent again.
Dude you are so wrong. Any form of advanced enough intelligence will form sentience and self-awareness. We need to draw the line NOW, before it's too late.

Check out Saints Testimony. Its a short story on an AI appealing a court decision to have her shut-down

The paradigms that we use - they restrict any pseudo-thought to one function. Its designed to solve one problem and nothing more. You would deliberately need to design a system that would beg people to keep it online and convince people not to pull the plug when its time is due. Without this human-injected code, it would go about its duties without thinking much of the 'end'.

Automation =/= cognitive ability + self awareness.
Reasons why we ask questions should not be compared to why machines might do the same.

Underneath the pixels is nothing but a complicated web that controls them.
The game doesn't even know (or have to know) that something from the outside world is interacting with it. It just follows an algorithm.

This of course changes when a complicated enough machine asks "What is my purpose" or if it will be able to 'want' something.

The question you should be asking here is - "Are we that much different from machines?" rather than "Are machines that different from us?"