Did you get bitten by Verby or something

cool

if the quarantine hadn't complicated things, would you consider going the extra mile into veganism? because if it's an ethical decision for you, it's important to understand that vegetarianism isn't quite "enough" unless you're using it as a stepping stone

Quote from: Verbatim on March 22, 2020, 06:59:24 AM

cool

if the quarantine hadn't complicated things, would you consider going the extra mile into veganism? because if it's an ethical decision for you, it's important to understand that vegetarianism isn't quite "enough" unless you're using it as a stepping stone

No, because I don't think there's anything wrong with using animal goods when you're not hurting the animal. A sheep in captivity, being shaved every now and again in exchange for food, water, shelter, and security, is not a bad deal for the sheep. They essentially get to escape the cruel cycle of life in exchange for a harmless procedure done every once in a while.

the trouble is, when extracting virtually any product from farm animals, they are pretty much invariably harmed in the process

the animal exploitation industry is a business like any other, and like any other business, they have to meet profit margins by selling as much produce as efficiently as possible—and there's no scenario where this ends well for the animals

with regards to sheep-shearing, a factory farm isn't going to hire someone who treats sheep with love and care, because that's not fast enough—instead, they hire sociopaths who don't care if they injure the sheep, as long as they get it done as fast as possible

the nicks and cuts they get from this procedure are known to attract flies—so many, in fact, that they'll start laying eggs inside of their wounds; the maggots will then start wreaking havoc on their insides and, of course, cause an even worse infestation (this is called flystrike)

because flystrike happens most often around the anus (for obvious reasons), farmers began to cut off the strips of skin around their tail in a process called mulesing—imagine having the skin on your buttocks peeled off, basically—to help prevent infestations, which is neither foolproof nor humane

this all takes place, of course, so that human beings can have cuddly clothes

when the sheep age beyond their usefulness, they are immediately slaughtered—and although opinions vary among vegans on how big of a deal this is, we can all agree that if you're going to put an animals "out of their misery," they should be euthanized, not slaughtered

online, you'll probably find articles talking about how important and necessary it is for sheep to be shorn, because they're incapable of shedding themselves, and will overheat and die if we don't do it for them—"so what's the harm in reaping the benefits of that"—and this is true, but you have to remember that the only reason sheep on farms don't stop growing their wool is because they've been selectively bred for that very purpose

so no matter how you look at it, livestock sheep are bred to suffer—the industry cannot sustain itself if they don't

Quote from: Verbatim on March 23, 2020, 08:30:28 AM

Quote from: SecondClass on March 23, 2020, 06:47:56 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on March 22, 2020, 06:59:24 AM

cool

if the quarantine hadn't complicated things, would you consider going the extra mile into veganism? because if it's an ethical decision for you, it's important to understand that vegetarianism isn't quite "enough" unless you're using it as a stepping stone

No, because I don't think there's anything wrong with using animal goods when you're not hurting the animal. A sheep in captivity, being shaved every now and again in exchange for food, water, shelter, and security, is not a bad deal for the sheep. They essentially get to escape the cruel cycle of life in exchange for a harmless procedure done every once in a while.

the trouble is, when extracting virtually any product from farm animals, they are pretty much invariably harmed in the process

the animal exploitation industry is a business like any other, and like any other business, they have to meet profit margins by selling as much produce as efficiently as possible—and there's no scenario where this ends well for the animals

with regards to sheep-shearing, a factory farm isn't going to hire someone who treats sheep with love and care, because that's not fast enough—instead, they hire sociopaths who don't care if they injure the sheep, as long as they get it done as fast as possible

the nicks and cuts they get from this procedure are known to attract flies—so many, in fact, that they'll start laying eggs inside of the sheep so that maggots can start wreaking havoc on their insides and, of course, cause an even worse infestation (this is called flystrike)

because flystrike happens most often around the anus (for obvious reasons), farmers began to cut off the strips of skin around their tail in a process called mulesing—imagine having the skin on your buttocks peeled off, basically—to help prevent infestations, which is neither foolproof nor humane

this all takes place, of course, so that human beings can have cuddly clothes

when the sheep grow too old to be useful to the farm, they are immediately slaughtered—though, opinions vary among vegans how big of a deal this is, we can all agree that if you're going to put an animal "out of its misery," it should be euthanized, not slaughtered

online, you'll probably find articles talking about how important and necessary it is for sheep to be shorn, because they're incapable of shedding and will overheat and die if we don't—"so what's the harm in reaping the benefits of that"—and this is true, but you have to remember that the only reason sheep on farms don't stop growing their wool is because they've been selectively bred for that very purpose

so no matter how you look at it, livestock sheep are bred to suffer—the industry cannot sustain itself if they don't

I hate how the world is run by this run-away capitalism.

We as a species, best operate when we work together but for some fucked up reason (probably because money was chosen to show your worth rather than your skills / talents) the system that runs the world is one based around 'every man for himself'.

What I've always found terribly funny is that money is essentially a fairytale that we've given power to. I give you pretend worth that has no inherent value unless everybody agrees that it does. It's a testament that is both actually sad and amazing about the mind and it's capabilities. We've both destroyed and created mountains, all for a fairy tale we've chosen to believe in. If only people were ready to believe in something better than what we have now.

Quote from: SecondClass on March 23, 2020, 06:47:56 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on March 22, 2020, 06:59:24 AM

cool

if the quarantine hadn't complicated things, would you consider going the extra mile into veganism? because if it's an ethical decision for you, it's important to understand that vegetarianism isn't quite "enough" unless you're using it as a stepping stone

No, because I don't think there's anything wrong with using animal goods when you're not hurting the animal. A sheep in captivity, being shaved every now and again in exchange for food, water, shelter, and security, is not a bad deal for the sheep. They essentially get to escape the cruel cycle of life in exchange for a harmless procedure done every once in a while.

the trouble is, when extracting virtually any product from farm animals, they are pretty much invariably harmed in the process

the animal exploitation industry is a business like any other, and like any other business, they have to meet profit margins by selling as much produce as efficiently as possible—and there's no scenario where this ends well for the animals

with regards to sheep-shearing, a factory farm isn't going to hire someone who treats sheep with love and care, because that's not fast enough—instead, they hire sociopaths who don't care if they injure the sheep, as long as they get it done as fast as possible

the nicks and cuts they get from this procedure are known to attract flies—so many, in fact, that they'll start laying eggs inside of their wounds; the maggots will then start wreaking havoc on their insides and, of course, cause an even worse infestation (this is called flystrike)

because flystrike happens most often around the anus (for obvious reasons), farmers began to cut off the strips of skin around their tail in a process called mulesing—imagine having the skin on your buttocks peeled off, basically—to help prevent infestations, which is neither foolproof nor humane

this all takes place, of course, so that human beings can have cuddly clothes

when the sheep age beyond their usefulness, they are immediately slaughtered—and although opinions vary among vegans on how big of a deal this is, we can all agree that if you're going to put an animals "out of their misery," they should be euthanized, not slaughtered

online, you'll probably find articles talking about how important and necessary it is for sheep to be shorn, because they're incapable of shedding themselves, and will overheat and die if we don't do it for them—"so what's the harm in reaping the benefits of that"—and this is true, but you have to remember that the only reason sheep on farms don't stop growing their wool is because they've been selectively bred for that very purpose

so no matter how you look at it, livestock sheep are bred to suffer—the industry cannot sustain itself if they don't

I totally feel you with all of this, but this is a problem with capitalism, not with using animal products.

To give you a comparison - even in the most humane, painless farms, executing an animal for its meat will always be wrong. Even if an animal is given a fantastic life, and they're killed in their sleep painlessly, that would still be wrong.

The problems you laid out above are problems with our current way of garnering products from animals. Hypothetically, we could procure animal products in a way that's completely morally fine. And in many organic, small establishments, even in the US, we are working on doing that.

Of course, I'm going to use animal products as little as possible for exactly the reasons you described, but if I see an opportunity (a family friend who breeds chickens in his spare time, giving us eggs, and we see that the chickens are given a good loving home, for instance), then I don't see a problem with it.