Guess what came in the mail today.

I_IRONMAN_I · July 25, 2015, 02:55:52 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 02:49:04 AM

Quote from: I_IRONMAN_I on July 25, 2015, 02:45:38 AM
I don't find eating meat immoral. It's the brutal methods of slaughtering animals to obtain that meat that I find immoral. I would prefer that the livestock be humanely killed. Not a hackjob style.

And how would you "humanely" kill an animal?

The only way I would ever consume meat (I probably wouldn't anyways, as I don't like it all that much) is if the animal was euthanised. It's painless, and IMO moral because if I was offered that opportunity (to die painlessly), I would take it.

I'm more interested in dairy than anything else. That shit is in everything.

Euthanized I mean. It'd have to be quick and relatively painless.

Dairy is nice and all unless your lactose intolerant (I'm not, if you're wondering). But I'm assuming you're not.

Quote from: Verbatim on July 25, 2015, 02:51:34 AM

Quote from: I_IRONMAN_I on July 25, 2015, 02:45:38 AM
humanely killed
i'd rather them not be killed at all

at least, not for the purposes of satiating my petty desires

It's not petty if the desire keeps your body running at 100%. Protein is essential to the body, and there's a lot of that in meat.

I_IRONMAN_I · July 25, 2015, 02:57:04 AM

Holy Christ it is 4am lmaoo

This thread is a damn eldritch abomination. An inglorious bastard it be.

Elai · July 25, 2015, 02:59:00 AM

Quote from: I_IRONMAN_I on July 25, 2015, 02:55:52 AM

Euthanized I mean. It'd have to be quick and relatively painless.

Well, the only way I see that happening is by the shot they give dogs and shit. And literally no one does that. It's extremely expensive.

I_IRONMAN_I · July 25, 2015, 03:02:41 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 02:59:00 AM

Quote from: I_IRONMAN_I on July 25, 2015, 02:55:52 AM
Euthanized I mean. It'd have to be quick and relatively painless.

Well, the only way I see that happening is by the shot they give dogs and shit. And literally no one does that. It's extremely expensive.

It is. But quick and painless constitutes to something that'll stop the heart instantly. Or kill the brain.

And though it is brutal in it's own right, a powerful shot to the brain, an insta-kill break to the spine, or something through the heart.

Prefer the damage be done to the upper neck or brain, as that usually is where the instant kill areas are. It sucks, but that's life.

I_IRONMAN_I · July 25, 2015, 03:03:53 AM

Well, imma hit the sheets because I'm planning to jog in a few hours. Night.

Verbatim · July 25, 2015, 03:04:04 AM

Quote from: I_IRONMAN_I on July 25, 2015, 02:55:52 AM

It's not petty if the desire keeps your body running at 100%. Protein is essential to the body, and there's a lot of that in meat.

sorry, but yeah, i do consider one's personal health to be a petty desire
killing another sentient for the sole purpose of personal gain represents a very large ethical transgression

protein is rich in many vegan-friendly sources
namely nuts, grains, and soy products

and now that we have vitamin b12 supplements, we simply don't need to eat meat anymore
so the only excuses anyone could possibly have left are either "i'm too addicted" or "i'm not strong enough"

Elai · July 25, 2015, 03:05:54 AM

Quote from: I_IRONMAN_I on July 25, 2015, 03:02:41 AM

Well if there's a way to guarantee that it is painless, than I assume you could argue that it is moral.

But it's still not necessary. You shouldn't have to kill to satisfy your desires. It's still a dick move, IMO.

Pendulate · July 25, 2015, 03:07:40 AM

Well how did this happen

Elai · July 25, 2015, 03:07:51 AM

It appears that Pendulate is online. Let's hope he drops in to say hello.

Edit: He's here. Damn, shoulda refreshed the page.

Verbatim · July 25, 2015, 03:08:39 AM

we should eat ironman in his sleep

but only after we euthanize him first
because that'll make it all okay

Elai · July 25, 2015, 03:10:22 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 25, 2015, 03:07:40 AM

Well how did this happen

It's actually pretty tame ITT, which is why it's gone onto so many different topics without becoming a shitstorm.

Probably because some of the more argumentative users are offline, but oh well.

Verbatim · July 25, 2015, 03:11:23 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 03:10:22 AM

Probably because some of the more argumentative users are offline, but oh well.

oh, yeah

expect this to turn into a fullblown shitstorm by noon

Elai · July 25, 2015, 03:13:46 AM

Hmm.

I suppose there really isn't any scenario in which killing other sentient beings moral...

I mean, if I was offered euthanasia, I'd take it. But does that give me the right to impose it on others? No. Which was my mistake.

Verbatim · July 25, 2015, 03:17:34 AM

i mean, don't get me wrong

if we're talking about recalcitrant rapists/murderers (repeat offenders), then fuck them
i have no qualms with seeing them bite the dust at the hands of the government

if you've proven yourself to be nothing but a blight to society, i see no reason to keep you around

but yeah, generally speaking, 99.99% of the time, killing sentients is wrong

Elai · July 25, 2015, 03:17:59 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 25, 2015, 03:11:23 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 03:10:22 AM
Probably because some of the more argumentative users are offline, but oh well.
oh, yeah

expect this to turn into a fullblown shitstorm by noon

I can only imagine...

I mean, we strayed a bit off course with the whole "enemy" thing, but we've hit some pretty good conversational topics in this thread.

A Cheese Potato · July 25, 2015, 03:42:45 AM

it's alright guys I'm still awake

Elai · July 25, 2015, 03:44:11 AM

I'm about to get off myself.

A Cheese Potato · July 25, 2015, 03:45:39 AM

don't worry I can keep the thread going till you guys wake up

Elai · July 25, 2015, 03:52:51 AM

I'm sad that Pendulate didn't comment. He's a cool dude, would have been nice to see his perspective on... any of the many topics we've covered.

Anyways, Potato. I'm trusting you with the thread. Not a scratch when I return.

A Cheese Potato · July 25, 2015, 03:54:08 AM

I got this shit man

everything will be fine

Pendulate · July 25, 2015, 04:06:14 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 03:52:51 AM

I'm sad that Pendulate didn't comment. He's a cool dude, would have been nice to see his perspective on... any of the many topics we've covered.

I only skimmed the thread. If you listed said topics I'll happily offer my views... this site has been woefully lacking in discussion value of late.

Elai · July 25, 2015, 04:46:19 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 25, 2015, 04:06:14 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 03:52:51 AM
I'm sad that Pendulate didn't comment. He's a cool dude, would have been nice to see his perspective on... any of the many topics we've covered.
I only skimmed the thread. If you listed said topics I'll happily offer my views... this site has been woefully lacking in discussion value of late.

I updated the OP with a rundown of each page. We started off with why pessimism is logical/the most logical viewpoint, which moved into "enemies on the internet" and defining the word "enemy" in a contemporary sense (I made a good post that referenced your ad hominem philosophy, if I do say so myself.)

And then we went from there to veganism, and why killing any sentient being is immoral.

But yes, I agree with you. The site has been lacking good conversation topics as of late.

Elai · July 25, 2015, 04:48:23 AM

Some good stuff was said, across the board. I recommend reading through it if you have the time (that goes for anyone reading this.)

Pendulate · July 25, 2015, 05:33:53 AM

Still don't think I've got much to contribute, really =(

Sure, a pessimistic outlook is generally a more rational one. But let's just enjoy things every once in a while, shall we

Concerning your query about eggs, I'd argue that laying hens have it the worst of all.

I don't think the argument that "killing is wrong" has a great deal of merit. I'm more concerned with the suffering inflicted on animals, coupled with the fact that large-scale, capitalist animal agriculture is -- and always will be -- ethically unmanageable. Which means that buying "humane" animal stuffs is still unethical because you're supporting a conglomerate that can't exist without animal suffering.

Elai · July 25, 2015, 06:02:22 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 25, 2015, 05:33:53 AM

Sure, a pessimistic outlook is generally a more rational one. But let's just enjoy things every once in a while, shall we

I don't think that pessimism implies a dismissal of the good things in life. Only that they are overwhelmingly outweighed by the bad.

I, like any other admitted pessimist, enjoy quite a few things.

Quote

Concerning your query about eggs, I'd argue that laying hens have it the worst of all.

Well, I was only wondering, as I haven't looked into it all that much myself. I don't eat eggs anymore, but if I ever decided to start weight training again, they're an excellent source of protein. I wanted to know if they'd be a viable option. Don't worry, they're not.

Quote

I don't think the argument that "killing is wrong" has a great deal of merit.

Care to elaborate? It's an imposition on another sentient creature.

Quote

I'm more concerned with the suffering inflicted on animals, coupled with the fact that large-scale, capitalist animal agriculture is -- and always will be -- ethically unmanageable. Which means that buying "humane" animal stuffs is still unethical because you're supporting a conglomerate that can't exist without animal suffering.

Agreed.

There really is no good reason to eat animals. Period.

Pendulate · July 25, 2015, 06:10:36 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 06:02:22 AM

I don't think that pessimism implies a dismissal of the good things in life. Only that they are overwhelmingly outweighed by the bad.

I, like any other admitted pessimist, enjoy quite a few things.

Yeah, I really just wanted to post that video.

Quote

Care to elaborate? It's an imposition on another sentient creature.

How so? An imposition, by definition, negatively impacts the subject. I haven't heard any compelling arguments as to how death can be a negative impact in this way.

Elai · July 25, 2015, 06:42:10 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 25, 2015, 06:10:36 AM

How so? An imposition, by definition, negatively impacts the subject.

im·po·si·tion
ˌimpəˈziSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the action or process of imposing something or of being imposed.
"the imposition of martial law"
synonyms: imposing, foisting, forcing

It doesn't have to negatively impact the subject to be considered an imposition.

Quote

I haven't heard any compelling arguments as to how death can be a negative impact in this way.

Well, dying can be painful (negative). I don't see death (see, non-existence) to be a negative thing at all. But that doesn't mean we get to impose it on others. The end doesn't justify the means.

Elai · July 25, 2015, 06:44:31 AM

I would also like everyone to know that I just finished the first chapter of my book. It was quite good.

Pendulate · July 25, 2015, 07:12:04 AM

Quote from: Prehisnake on July 25, 2015, 06:42:10 AM

It doesn't have to negatively impact the subject to be considered an imposition.

It has to be recognized as an imposition by the subject. Unless you can provide some examples showing otherwise...?

Quote

Well, dying can be painful (negative). I don't see death (see, non-existence) to be a negative thing at all. But that doesn't mean we get to impose it on others. The end doesn't justify the means.

The pain experienced at death is distinct from death itself, though. And since I'm a strong proponent of objective ethics, I'm pretty skeptical when you need to invoke concepts of "rights" and what we are "allowed" to do when there's no empirical way of verifying them. I can verify the proposition that "causing suffering is unethical", because suffering is an empirical property with intrinsic value. I can't do that with propositions like "killing is wrong" because they're categorical.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 25, 2015, 07:13:49 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.