Do some people really not have an "inner voice?"

Aether · October 11, 2018, 02:48:17 PM

I'm sure most of you have seen the NPC meme that's gained prominence lately, which is basically just the idea of a philosophical zombie that has been around for a long time, and it's mainly just used as a way to poke fun at people with ideas or interests someone doesn't like.

Something I've heard when people have discussed it, however, is the idea of an "inner voice," which is basically just a person's tendency to speak to themselves within their own mind when thinking. Apparently some people claim that they don't do this and it just sounds really strange to me.

Maybe it's because I'm an introverted person, but I'm constantly "talking" to myself in my head when I think about something. Do people really just not use at least some form of language in their mind to define concepts when they are contemplating something? I suppose it's entirely possible.

challengerX · October 11, 2018, 02:53:13 PM

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Verbatim · October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM

it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will

Ásgeirr · October 11, 2018, 03:21:18 PM

Isnt all thought essentially just talking to oneself? Its just more explicit for some people.

Aether · October 11, 2018, 03:38:24 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM

it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will

See I though about that as well, that they just didn't understand what it meant to have an "inner voice," but then I considered the idea of someone who was never taught any language at all. Like a hypothetical "raised by animals" child. I wonder what thoughts would be like for them.

Also, regarding your point about music, why then would you ever listen to a song again if you can remember the entire thing? While I do play songs in my head, and in fact I almost always have at least one song or another stuck in it, actually hearing music triggers a greater emotional response for me.

Elai · October 11, 2018, 03:44:58 PM

some people think in shapes and objects. you can actually learn how to do the other with practice, apparently.

Verbatim · October 11, 2018, 03:55:35 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 11, 2018, 03:38:24 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
See I though about that as well, that they just didn't understand what it meant to have an "inner voice," but then I considered the idea of someone who was never taught any language at all. Like a hypothetical "raised by animals" child. I wonder what thoughts would be like for them.

Also, regarding your point about music, why then would you ever listen to a song again if you can remember the entire thing? While I do play songs in my head, and in fact I almost always have at least one song or another stuck in it, actually hearing music triggers a greater emotional response for me.

if i were to be super clinical and honest about it, there are pretty much only two reasons i would ever relisten to a song i've already memorized—either because i haven't fully memorized it yet, or because i want a louder version of the song, loud enough for my mind to become fully subsumed within the music

because the imaginary decibels that my mind creates can only go up so high, and they cannot always drown out noise from the outside, unless i concentrate really hard, which is a lot of effort for what's supposed to be a passive activity

Jive Turkey · October 11, 2018, 04:57:26 PM

I have had a very strong “inner voice” for as long as I can remember

I think everyone has it, but to varying degrees

I also notice it tends to “shut off” or at least quiets down a lot when I’m in big social situations, or around friends(I’ve trained to do this tbh because it usually messes me up). But when I’m alone it’s very prominent. And a lot of people I know CANNOT be alone. Like you guys would be surprised, some people are literally never alone, they’re with their best friend, or their boyfriend, or at least someone all day long from waking to sleeping. I think these people avoid their inner voice a lot because they never really hear it

Some people numb it out too, with drugs or alcohol.

And I’ve met very few individuals, probably like 5 my whole life, who I really believe don’t have it at all. They’re so interesting. It’s like their entire life is purely instinctual. Every action, word, etc all come from a place of instinct and not thought.

Aether · October 11, 2018, 05:42:16 PM

Quote from: Jive Turkey on October 11, 2018, 04:57:26 PM

And I’ve met very few individuals, probably like 5 my whole life, who I really believe don’t have it at all. They’re so interesting. It’s like their entire life is purely instinctual. Every action, word, etc all come from a place of instinct and not thought.

I couldn't imagine living this way, where basically every action is on impulse. I feel like I would make so many mistakes and wouldn't learn from them as well.

October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM

it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will

"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic

challengerX · October 11, 2018, 08:31:00 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

October 11, 2018, 08:47:41 PM

Quote from: challengerX on October 11, 2018, 08:31:00 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic
your drug addled brain is incapable of thought

i havent done drugs in so long lol

just got a hotel job tho, so thats all about to change

Verbatim · October 11, 2018, 09:23:44 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic

we're not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with things

we're talking about doing or not doing things

thank you for admitting that you must be one of these smooth-brained fucks who doesn't think in language

October 11, 2018, 09:31:43 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 09:23:44 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic
we're not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with things

we're talking about doing or not doing things

thank you for admitting that you must be one of these smooth-brained fucks who doesn't think in language

No, I have an inner voice

but everyone is different

it's very egotistical to believe that your experience = everyone's

Verbatim · October 11, 2018, 10:09:10 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 09:31:43 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic
we're not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with things

we're talking about doing or not doing things

thank you for admitting that you must be one of these smooth-brained fucks who doesn't think in language
No, I have an inner voice

but everyone is different

it's very egotistical to believe that your experience = everyone's

it would be egotistical if that were my only reason for thinking it must be everyone else's experience

but it isn't, you're just retarded

Elai · October 11, 2018, 10:15:38 PM

Quote from: Jive Turkey on October 11, 2018, 04:57:26 PM

And I’ve met very few individuals, probably like 5 my whole life, who I really believe don’t have it at all. They’re so interesting. It’s like their entire life is purely instinctual. Every action, word, etc all come from a place of instinct and not thought.

Were these "individuals" met at the zoo, or perchance, the pet store?

October 11, 2018, 10:51:42 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 10:09:10 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic
we're not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with things

we're talking about doing or not doing things

thank you for admitting that you must be one of these smooth-brained fucks who doesn't think in language
No, I have an inner voice

but everyone is different

it's very egotistical to believe that your experience = everyone's
it would be egotistical if that were my only reason for thinking it must be everyone else's experience

but it isn't, you're just retarded

literally what other reason could you possibly have

Verbatim · October 11, 2018, 11:13:44 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 10:51:42 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 10:09:10 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic
we're not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with things

we're talking about doing or not doing things

thank you for admitting that you must be one of these smooth-brained fucks who doesn't think in language
No, I have an inner voice

but everyone is different

it's very egotistical to believe that your experience = everyone's
it would be egotistical if that were my only reason for thinking it must be everyone else's experience

but it isn't, you're just retarded
literally what other reason could you possibly have

think REALLY REALLY hard

October 11, 2018, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 11:13:44 PM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 10:51:42 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 10:09:10 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic
we're not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with things

we're talking about doing or not doing things

thank you for admitting that you must be one of these smooth-brained fucks who doesn't think in language
No, I have an inner voice

but everyone is different

it's very egotistical to believe that your experience = everyone's
it would be egotistical if that were my only reason for thinking it must be everyone else's experience

but it isn't, you're just retarded
literally what other reason could you possibly have
think REALLY REALLY hard

Nah don't play the game where you make me come up with your answer

admit you're basing this accusation of mass lying off your own personal experience and nothing more

Desty · October 12, 2018, 12:43:45 AM

Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 11:13:44 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 10:51:42 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 10:09:10 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
Quote from: Carmen on October 11, 2018, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 11, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
it's hard for me to imagine someone not doing this, to where i'd be inclined to believe that someone who claims that they don't is either lying, or they just don't understand what it means to have an inner voice, because it wasn't explained to them properly—they might be interpreting the question as "do you hear voices" or "are you schizophrenic" or something

i even listen to music in my head, which is why i never found it necessary to get an mp3 player or anything like that as a kid—and to this day, i still think listening to music with your phone is a little strange—because what's the point if i can just play back any song i want in my head at will
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is lying", classic
we're not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with things

we're talking about doing or not doing things

thank you for admitting that you must be one of these smooth-brained fucks who doesn't think in language
No, I have an inner voice

but everyone is different

it's very egotistical to believe that your experience = everyone's
it would be egotistical if that were my only reason for thinking it must be everyone else's experience

but it isn't, you're just retarded
literally what other reason could you possibly have
think REALLY REALLY hard
Nah don't play the game where you make me come up with your answer

admit you're basing this accusation of mass lying off your own personal experience and nothing more

Come on secondclass, stop being so defensive and offensive. Try to understand instead of acting the way you do. What Verbatim means is that he uses inner monologue to talk to himself, and he thinks that other people do so too, only maybe not in the form of words. It might be through lesser means like thinking through how different things make you feel, which is basically what the npc meme is. It's not a lack of inner monologue, but rather a simplified one.

An example is: GF who broke up with me was a bitch, but she made me good food and that's why I'm so sad now. I miss the food and I wish I had food. < this right here is NPC thinking, whereas a "player"'s thinking would be more like: GF who broke up with me was a bitch. She made good food, but there are other ways to get this food like... and let's not forget that she did treat me badly. Now that she's gone and I know of a way to get similar food I actually gain from this if I ___

October 12, 2018, 01:40:39 AM

So just a typical alpha vs beta argument from you, no surprise there. Just because someone thinks differently doesn't mean you can classify them as an "NPC". I've never even heard of the meme, which should show you that it's not a healthy way to think.

And I'm more getting on Verb for saying that those who claim they don't have an inner monologue are LYING. He makes this grand statement about a whole class of people and thinks he's so in the right, they have to be lying to fucking disagree.

Dietrich Six · October 12, 2018, 06:18:58 AM

I mean, they are lying tho

FatherlyNick - fuck putin · October 12, 2018, 06:23:55 AM

Quote from: challengerX on October 11, 2018, 02:53:13 PM

Well, yeah. Proof of it is that people think in their own language.

Can't remember the last time I thought in Russian.

Weird how it switches to your primary language like that.

For ppl who allegedly don't have an inner voice - how to you write anything?

Desty · October 12, 2018, 09:33:11 AM

Quote from: Carmen on October 12, 2018, 01:40:39 AM

So just a typical alpha vs beta argument from you, no surprise there. Just because someone thinks differently doesn't mean you can classify them as an "NPC". I've never even heard of the meme, which should show you that it's not a healthy way to think.

And I'm more getting on Verb for saying that those who claim they don't have an inner monologue are LYING. He makes this grand statement about a whole class of people and thinks he's so in the right, they have to be lying to fucking disagree.

You got it wrong, it's not alpha or beta. People who use the NPC meme are unserious or mentally deranged

Luke · October 12, 2018, 02:12:17 PM

Surely you have to do that when you're thinking about something...

So people that dont do it, dont think?

Cheat · October 13, 2018, 11:22:24 AM

Quote from: Aether on October 11, 2018, 02:48:17 PM

I'm sure most of you have seen the NPC meme that's gained prominence lately, which is basically just the idea of a philosophical zombie that has been around for a long time, and it's mainly just used as a way to poke fun at people with ideas or interests someone doesn't like.

Something I've heard when people have discussed it, however, is the idea of an "inner voice," which is basically just a person's tendency to speak to themselves within their own mind when thinking. Apparently some people claim that they don't do this and it just sounds really strange to me.

Maybe it's because I'm an introverted person, but I'm constantly "talking" to myself in my head when I think about something. Do people really just not use at least some form of language in their mind to define concepts when they are contemplating something? I suppose it's entirely possible.

If I'm thinking about something regarding language like a movie quote, a book, preparing something I am about to say or write (like now) then I would say I have an inner voice.

Typically, though, my thoughts are more like flashes of visual memory + emotions + some other random sense. When I think, it's more like some kind of simulation in my head. For instance: the apartment above me recently leaked a shit ton of water down into one of my walls and it is growing mold; it will need to be replaced.

When I think about this, I don't think the words "water damage" or "mold", I imagine in my head the stains on the wall and the green bits of slime, where they are in my apartment, and get a feeling of dread as I imagine the stack of papers in my closet that has my insurance information on it. I can see myself on the phone, pacing around my apartment talking to someone about it and then I switch to a vision of repair guys moving around my washer / dryer so they can get at the warped wall.

Through all that, I may hear English words for things I don't have a solid mental image of like "insurance", but it's a very minor part of it.

On the regular, though, I don't tend to think in a language and I don't usually hear a mental "voice". Again, not saying I don't have one at all; I just only really hear it when I'm remembering something spoken or read or when I'm actively trying to prepare or think in English.

Dunno if that makes sense or is much different from the norm.

Aether · October 13, 2018, 11:48:19 AM

Quote from: Cheat on October 13, 2018, 11:22:24 AM

Quote from: Aether on October 11, 2018, 02:48:17 PM
I'm sure most of you have seen the NPC meme that's gained prominence lately, which is basically just the idea of a philosophical zombie that has been around for a long time, and it's mainly just used as a way to poke fun at people with ideas or interests someone doesn't like.

Something I've heard when people have discussed it, however, is the idea of an "inner voice," which is basically just a person's tendency to speak to themselves within their own mind when thinking. Apparently some people claim that they don't do this and it just sounds really strange to me.

Maybe it's because I'm an introverted person, but I'm constantly "talking" to myself in my head when I think about something. Do people really just not use at least some form of language in their mind to define concepts when they are contemplating something? I suppose it's entirely possible.
If I'm thinking about something regarding language like a movie quote, a book, preparing something I am about to say or write (like now) then I would say I have an inner voice.

Typically, though, my thoughts are more like flashes of visual memory + emotions + some other random sense. When I think, it's more like some kind of simulation in my head. For instance: the apartment above me recently leaked a shit ton of water down into one of my walls and it is growing mold; it will need to be replaced.

When I think about this, I don't think the words "water damage" or "mold", I imagine in my head the stains on the wall and the green bits of slime, where they are in my apartment, and get a feeling of dread as I imagine the stack of papers in my closet that has my insurance information on it. I can see myself on the phone, pacing around my apartment talking to someone about it and then I switch to a vision of repair guys moving around my washer / dryer so they can get at the warped wall.

Through all that, I may hear English words for things I don't have a solid mental image of like "insurance", but it's a very minor part of it.

On the regular, though, I don't tend to think in a language and I don't usually hear a mental "voice". Again, not saying I don't have one at all; I just only really hear it when I'm remembering something spoken or read or when I'm actively trying to prepare or think in English.

Dunno if that makes sense or is much different from the norm.

Yeah I understand that. Thinking in shapes, colors, emotions etc. is something I do all the time, especially when I'm practicing art or trying to come up with new ideas for it. My thoughts are definitely not just an endless string of words.

However, it seemed like some people were claiming that they just don't speak to themselves inside their mind at all, and that's what sounds really strange to me. How does a person write or read without doing so? How do they contemplate abstract ideas that are almost entirely defined through language?

These questions made me think that, as Verb said, some people just didn't quite understand what it meant to have and "inner voice" and actually do think with language. But I also considered the idea of someone who was never taught any language, and I wonder what their capacity to contemplate certain ideas is like.

Super Irish · October 13, 2018, 02:45:27 PM

Quote from: Aether on October 13, 2018, 11:48:19 AM

But I also considered the idea of someone who was never taught any language, and I wonder what their capacity to contemplate certain ideas is like.

There is a concept of "mentalese" language by some linguist for the rare few who don't have a language (mostly people who have had extreme developmental issues or abuse-related, where there are other things at play and affect the person).

E.g. If two people experienced Thunder and Lightning, one with language and one without, while one could explain it to someone else, the second, whilst having difficulty explaining it to anyone, could concieve of it within their mind and attribute things to it.

Sure they may not know how to describe "loud" or "flash of light", but would have in their minds the idea of it and compare it against other experiences (i.e. a normal day is "quiet" even if they have no word for it).

Abstract or more complex ideas are harder to explain or concieve, such as "infinite".