This is now a classic Xbox Live lobby thread.

Ingy | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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There seems to be a weird double standard with “black” culture where if you bring up negative differences (higher crime rate, single motherhood, school dropout, etc), you’re racist but at the same time you’re expected to acknowledge and respect positive aspects of “black” culture (hip hop, civil rights movement, the use of the word nigga)

This is going straight into my "shit racists say who don't think they're racist" folder.

Kinda easy when you’re already assuming motivations
There's nothing to assume. You just reduced an entire ethnicities identity into one monolithic, inseparable entity by categorizing it as "black culture". Pretty racist if you ask me.

What exactly is "black culture" by the way? Is this including Caribbean culture? African culture? Black British culture? Or do you just think the hippety hop music and gang banging encapsulates everything.

Well first of all what I'm talking about is the culture in poor inner city communities. The reason I put black in quotation marks is because I don't think it has anything to do with race. It has to do with economic situation and location. However, many people associate these cultures with race which is why you see groups like black student associations on campus, NAACP, black churches, etc.

You ask what black culture is and that's what I'm asking with my original post. These groups (especially black groups student associations on campus) pride themselves on their achievements and shared values. What I don't get is whose achievements they are gathering around. If it's the black community collectively, then why is it inappropriate to bring up downsides like the high violence, single motherhood, and poverty rates found in these communities?

In short, I always thought we were suppose to view things in terms of race but then self proclaimed black groups started saying that difference between races should be acknowledged and embraced

Also I am talking about African Americans, not black people all over the world


Ingy | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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This seems kinda hypocritical seeing how you said that people should rise above natural instincts and here you're saying people shouldn't question their emotional responses at all
when did i say they they shouldn't question them
That was the implication I got when you were refuting the point that people should teach themselves to not be offended
i don't think it's unreasonable to point out that not everybody has the time or patience to do whatever zen mumbo jumbo that chronic just loves to babble about

people should obviously be less sensitive, but to call it a "choice" is just extremely reductive and unfair

like, that's all i'm saying

That's fair. He started losing me with the zen stuff too. People can be offended but they should recognize that their emotional response comes from the views they hold. Sometimes it's not a bad thing to trace that emotional response and question whether your views need changing or not


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yeah sure why not


 
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We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty
and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
"Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.."
I suppose we all thought that one way or another.
chaotic energy


Aether | Mythic Invincible!
 
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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
i don't think it's unreasonable to point out that not everybody has the time or patience to do whatever zen mumbo jumbo that chronic just loves to babble about

people should obviously be less sensitive, but to call it a "choice" is just extremely reductive and unfair

like, that's all i'm saying
I've only ever talked about Zen a few times before on this site. I only mentioned it now because it's the most extreme example of what being un-phased can actually accomplish. You don't have to follow Zen just to decide that you're not going to stress over things in your life that you feel aren't worth it.


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Hey.
I came here from b.net after a few Floods invited me. None of them post on either b.net nor here anymore, which is sad. I was still active on b.net until for some bizarre reason, b.net admins locked out people who have not played Destiny. Even if you wanted to post on the offtopic section. After that, I fully moved here and have not returned to b.net since.
Please come play Halo with me.
Imagine you live with your parents who use curse words all the time without batting an eye.

Then during a Skype call, you drop an f bomb or something and your parents give you 'the eye' or even start shouting at you for cursing in their home.


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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
Imagine you live with your parents who use curse words all the time without batting an eye.

Then during a Skype call, you drop an f bomb or something and your parents give you 'the eye' or even start shouting at you for cursing in their home.
In a similar vein to this, my mom or sister will yell at someone for accidentally cursing in front of my kid nephew, but as soon as either of them are angry about something you might as well slap one of these labels on the house itself.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 09:57:11 AM by Mordo


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Signature goes here.
My father was notorious for this. The man straight up had no filter whatsoever and used profanity (including saying Nigger and Faggot) constantly, it was common speech to him, probably given his poor education despite finishing college. Yet if I even said anything worse than “ass” within his earshot he’d unrelentingly scream at me for it.

Imagine you live with your parents who use curse words all the time without batting an eye.

Then during a Skype call, you drop an f bomb or something and your parents give you 'the eye' or even start shouting at you for cursing in their home.
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 10:31:19 AM by Ian


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Galinsky, Adam D, Kurt Hugenberg, Carla Groom, and Galen V Bodenhausen. “The Reappropriation Of Stigmatizing Labels: Implications For Social Identity.” Research on Managing Groups and Teams Identity Issues in Groups, n.d., 221–56. https://doi.org/10.1016/s1534-0856(02)05009-0.
Quote
Abstract:

We present a model of reappropriation, the phenomenon whereby a stigmatized group revalues an externally imposed negative label by self-consciously referring to itself in terms of that label. The model specifies the causes and consequences of reappropriation as well as the essential conditions necessary for reappropriation to be effective. To place the concept of reappropriation in proper context, we begin by discussing the roots of stigma and the mediating role played by social categorization and social identity in the realization of stigma’s deleterious effects. We also discuss the strategies available to both individuals and groups by which stigmatized individuals can enhance their devalued social identities. We provide a discussion of two historical cases of reappropriation and some preliminary empirical evidence concerning the consequences of self-labeling and attempting to reappropriate a stigmatizing label. Finally we discuss the implications of the model for groups and teams,both within and outside of organizations.
It won't let us read this.


🍁 Aria 🔮 | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
Galinsky, Adam D, Kurt Hugenberg, Carla Groom, and Galen V Bodenhausen. “The Reappropriation Of Stigmatizing Labels: Implications For Social Identity.” Research on Managing Groups and Teams Identity Issues in Groups, n.d., 221–56. https://doi.org/10.1016/s1534-0856(02)05009-0.
Quote
Abstract:

We present a model of reappropriation, the phenomenon whereby a stigmatized group revalues an externally imposed negative label by self-consciously referring to itself in terms of that label. The model specifies the causes and consequences of reappropriation as well as the essential conditions necessary for reappropriation to be effective. To place the concept of reappropriation in proper context, we begin by discussing the roots of stigma and the mediating role played by social categorization and social identity in the realization of stigma’s deleterious effects. We also discuss the strategies available to both individuals and groups by which stigmatized individuals can enhance their devalued social identities. We provide a discussion of two historical cases of reappropriation and some preliminary empirical evidence concerning the consequences of self-labeling and attempting to reappropriate a stigmatizing label. Finally we discuss the implications of the model for groups and teams,both within and outside of organizations.
It won't let us read this.
It's paywalled, just pull up the doi on scihub


Ingy | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.

Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.

Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge
What exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.

It's not exactly a conversation brimming with heated debate.
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 12:26:15 PM by Mordo


Aether | Mythic Invincible!
 
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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.

Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge
What exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.
You mean to say that a white person is racist if they say it, no matter what the context is?


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.

Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge
What exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.
You mean to say that a white person is racist if they say it, no matter what the context is?
Unless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.


Aether | Mythic Invincible!
 
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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
Unless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.
How is a word inherently racist? It literally only has meaning because we ascribe meaning to it. If a person has absolutely no racist intentions when saying the word "nigger/nigga" then how does that mean that person hates black people or believes their race is superior?


If you have a group of friends of various races who all use the word "nigga" as a synonym for "dude" or "bro," how does a white person in that group doing the same thing a racist act?

I genuinely want to know your logic behind that belief.


 
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Imagine you live with your parents who use curse words all the time without batting an eye.

Then during a Skype call, you drop an f bomb or something and your parents give you 'the eye' or even start shouting at you for cursing in their home.
i really hope you realize just how horrible this comparison is

though if you did, you probably wouldn't have posted it, so i'm not sure


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Unless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.
How is a word inherently racist? It literally only has meaning because we ascribe meaning to it. If a person has absolutely no racist intentions when saying the word "nigger/nigga" then how does that mean that person hates black people or believes their race is superior?


If you have a group of friends of various races who all use the word "nigga" as a synonym for "dude" or "bro," how does a white person in that group doing the same thing a racist act?

I genuinely want to know your logic behind that belief.
Because the word has hundreds of years of vitriolic hatred and discrimination attached to it. You wouldn't use "chinky" or "beaner" to describe your Asian or Hispanic friends to "bond as bros" or whatever other lame excuse you want to come up with. So why use it with the n word?

I'm dropping this vid to clear any further confusion

https://youtu.be/ERKKp3HJJe4


 
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Unless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.
How is a word inherently racist? It literally only has meaning because we ascribe meaning to it. If a person has absolutely no racist intentions when saying the word "nigger/nigga" then how does that mean that person hates black people or believes their race is superior?


If you have a group of friends of various races who all use the word "nigga" as a synonym for "dude" or "bro," how does a white person in that group doing the same thing a racist act?

I genuinely want to know your logic behind that belief.
what if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"

would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impolite


Ingy | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.

Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge
What exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.

It's not exactly a conversation brimming with heated debate.

Well there is a word that perpetuates an us vs them situation when the goal is to not perpetuate an us vs them situation

Just on its face having a word one group can use and another group can't is inherently discriminatory but on the other hand, the group also has been oppressed for centuries so there is history behind the word

You accused me of boiling down an entire ethnicity to a single entity and here you are making this a binary argument with no nuance   


Ingy | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Unless you're an actor in a performance piece that is designed to portray that kind of role, (which 99% of the population isn't) then no, there's not much context which justifies a white person to use the word.
How is a word inherently racist? It literally only has meaning because we ascribe meaning to it. If a person has absolutely no racist intentions when saying the word "nigger/nigga" then how does that mean that person hates black people or believes their race is superior?


If you have a group of friends of various races who all use the word "nigga" as a synonym for "dude" or "bro," how does a white person in that group doing the same thing a racist act?

I genuinely want to know your logic behind that belief.
what if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"

would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impolite

I think there is a difference between impolite and racist. Impolite is like a minor transgression whereas racist means you're a bad human being with bad human values. It's a heavy implication to mark someone with and I don't think impolite carries the same connotation
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 12:59:56 PM by Ingy


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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
what if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"

would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impolite
That would make a lot more sense to me. There are a lot of words that I wouldn't expect to be seen as being polite when saying them.

I just don't understand how, for instance, I would be racist for using the word while having this discussion. There are plenty of contexts in which a person might say it without any intention of being derogatory or having any prejudice against black people.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.

Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge
What exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.

It's not exactly a conversation brimming with heated debate.

Well there is a word that perpetuates an us vs them situation when the goal is to not perpetuate an us vs them situation

Just on its face having a word one group can use and another group can't is inherently discriminatory but on the other hand, the group also has been oppressed for centuries so there is history behind the word

You accused me of boiling down an entire ethnicity to a single entity and here you are making this a binary argument with no nuance   
What the fuck are you blathering on about? You literally just refuted your own case. Yeah, the word has history behind it. Hence why white people shouldn't be using it sans in very limited circumstances, i.e. in an acting performance.

Not everything has to have this super grey moral gradient to it. Sometimes things really are just unambiguous.


🍁 Aria 🔮 | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
How is a word inherently racist?
Slurs are derogatory by definition, and the use of them (outside of the field of reclaimed speech) cannot be justified outside of specific situations. The oppressing group using pejoratives reinforces the social stigmatization of the oppressed group and the status quo. "Words are just words" ignores the hundreds of years of abuse, dehumanization, and racism associated with that word. A black man was killed for jogging through a neighborhood fifteen minutes from his house, and nobody knew for two months because the system did its damnedest to cover it up. You can't make steps toward limiting societal imbalance while actively participating in a culture of stigmatization.

I just don't understand how, for instance, I would be racist for using the word while having this discussion.
That the subject can be discussed without using the word means it isn't necessary to.
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:09:04 PM by 🍁 Aria 🔮


Ingy | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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"The blackies get to say it so why can't I say it hmmmmst've" could not be any more of a white entitlement temper tantrum.

Are you even here to discuss anything or just splurge
What exactly is there to discuss, pray tell? Either you're a racist who thinks it's acceptable for white people to say the word, however much you want to sugar coat it with bullshit rationale, or you aren't.

It's not exactly a conversation brimming with heated debate.

Well there is a word that perpetuates an us vs them situation when the goal is to not perpetuate an us vs them situation

Just on its face having a word one group can use and another group can't is inherently discriminatory but on the other hand, the group also has been oppressed for centuries so there is history behind the word

You accused me of boiling down an entire ethnicity to a single entity and here you are making this a binary argument with no nuance   
What the fuck are you blathering on about? You literally just refuted your own case. Yeah, the word has history behind it. Hence why white people shouldn't be using it sans in very limited circumstances, i.e. in an acting performance.

Not everything has to have this super grey moral gradient to it. Sometimes things really are just unambiguous.

Alright let me break it down for you since you have the processing power of an ant

Racism is bad.
Racism means barriers between races.
The word nigger sets up barriers between races.
The use of the word nigger perpetuates barriers between races.
Barriers between races means racism.
The use of the word nigger perpetuates racism.

Nobody should use the word nigger honestly. But since we have this weird situation where black people use it (and have valid reasons for doing so), it's appropriate to have discussions about it that don't fall into the binary choice you set up
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:13:17 PM by Ingy


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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
How is a word inherently racist?
Slurs are derogatory by definition, and the use of them (outside of the field of reclaimed speech) cannot be justified outside of specific situations. The oppressing group using pejoratives reinforces the social stigmatization of the oppressed group and the status quo. "Words are just words" ignores the hundreds of years of abuse, dehumanization, and racism associated with that word. A black man was killed for jogging through a neighborhood fifteen minutes from his house, and nobody knew for two months because the system did its damnedest to cover it up. You can't make steps toward limiting societal imbalance while actively participating in a culture of stigmatization.
I'm not asking what justification there is for using a word, though. What I'm getting at is how words literally have no meaning at all until we as humans give meaning to them, thus that meaning is not absolute. You have, for example, the word "negro," which can be seen as derogatory in English, but in Spanish it simply means the color black. Because of this, not every use of the word has a derogatory meaning or even a negative one.

That isn't to say that because of this, people should just be able to go around saying slurs willy nilly and everyone else should just get over it.  I'm only saying that there are plenty of instances where saying a racial slur isn't actually being racist. It's not the act of saying the word itself that is racist so much as it is the context behind it.


 
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what if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"

would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impolite
That would make a lot more sense to me. There are a lot of words that I wouldn't expect to be seen as being polite when saying them.

I just don't understand how, for instance, I would be racist for using the word while having this discussion. There are plenty of contexts in which a person might say it without any intention of being derogatory or having any prejudice against black people.
there's an argument to be made that your weird defensiveness towards the word's usage could be seen as a canary in the coalmine for some unspoken racism you might be holding deep down, while other white people such as myself are perfectly content in saying, "well, it's not a word i would ever use anyway, so it's not a big deal to me" which is the more correct position

though, full disclosure, while i've never used the word to describe a person, i have used it in jokes before on this website, but i'd probably think twice about ever doing it again, because i don't find those jokes funny anymore
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:20:20 PM by Verbatim


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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
what if, instead of racist, he just said "extremely impolite"

would that be a problem, or do you still want to say the word without being seen as impolite
That would make a lot more sense to me. There are a lot of words that I wouldn't expect to be seen as being polite when saying them.

I just don't understand how, for instance, I would be racist for using the word while having this discussion. There are plenty of contexts in which a person might say it without any intention of being derogatory or having any prejudice against black people.
there's an argument to be made that your weird defensiveness towards the word's usage could be seen as a canary in the coalmine for some unspoken racism you might be holding deep down, while other white people such as myself are perfectly content in saying, "well, it's not a word i would ever use anyway, so it's not a big deal to me" which is the more correct position

though, full disclosure, while i've never used the word in a serious context, i have used it in jokes before on this website, but i'd probably think twice about ever doing it again, because i don't find those jokes funny anymore
Yeah but that would be a total assumption. I really cant stand collectivism in general, and I'm a staunch individualist.

I'm not really trying to defend the use of the word so much as I'm trying to figure out why people believe the act of using it is what is racist instead of the person's intentions behind it.


 
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Yeah but that would be a total assumption. I really cant stand collectivism in general.

I'm not really trying to defend the use of the word so much as I'm trying to figure out why people believe the act of using it is what is racist instead of the person's intentions behind it.
i don't think anyone believes that, though—nobody in this thread, at least

mordo gave you the acting example, which means that he clearly realizes intention matters

i don't see anyone trying to argue that it's the act itself that's racist

YouTube


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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
Alright let me break it down for you since you have the processing power of an ant

Racism is bad.
Racism means barriers between races.
The word nigger sets up barriers between races.
Through an oppressing group and an oppressed group.
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The use of the word nigger perpetuates barriers between races.
The use by an oppressing group stigmatizes the oppressed group.
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Barriers between races means racism.
The use of the word nigger perpetuates racism.
When used by an oppressing group.

There are a limited number of strategies to avoid being stigmatized:
1) Leave the group (not possible for Poc)
2) "Closeting" (not possible for Poc)
3) Dis-identifying from the stigma's description (avoiding education is bad, so no)

So they all suck, right? Reappropriation isn't and end goal, it's a group-wide mechanism by which the affected group can attempt to transform the meaning through positive use from the in-group. Language changes over time and not instantly. It's a negotiation, a struggle. Socially sanctioning the use from an out-group in the meantime is the way that the in-group wins the linguistic war and rids itself of stigma. Out-group using the slur doesn't remove barriers, it supports the one that's there in the battlefield of language.

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Nobody should use the word nigger honestly.
Then stop using it. It's unnecessary.
Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:34:43 PM by 🍁 Aria 🔮