Problem with Man of Steel

MyNameIsCharlie · March 27, 2016, 11:55:20 PM

Ok, I don't think anyone brought this up.

When Kal-El is initially brought on Zod's ship, he passes out and Zod communicated with him Matrix style. Why did he choose that particular imagry? Being sucked under by a sea of skulls? Zod basically sold him on stopping him. He could have shown him anything. That imagry said: I'm a villain, please stop me.

Maybe this is why BvS is being rated so poorly. Zod is has a goal anyone could relate to. The preservation of his people. Yet Snyder chose such a black and white way to tell the audience of a very grey area. Maybe this flaw is in BvS too.

R o c k e t · March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM

Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well

MyNameIsCharlie · March 28, 2016, 12:07:31 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM

Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well

I haven't seen BvS yet, but in MoS they are done very well. At least in the technical sense. They just fail the sniff test of reality. Someone like Zod wouldn't try to terrify someone into stopping him. There's no other outcome to that particular imagry. It's pretty, beautiful even. But it makes zero sense when you think about what he's trying to accomplish.

Coomer · March 28, 2016, 12:10:39 AM

It may have just been Kal's emotional response to the idea

Like a when you think a bad thought on acid and start having a bad trip

R o c k e t · March 28, 2016, 12:11:19 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on March 28, 2016, 12:07:31 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM
Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well

I haven't seen BvS yet, but in MoS they are done very well. At least in the technical sense. They just fail the sniff test of reality. Someone like Zod wouldn't try to terrify someone into stopping him. There's no other outcome to that particular imagry. It's pretty, beautiful even. But it makes zero sense when you think about what he's trying to accomplish.

In man of steel the dream looks great, but lacks a good setup. Why does Superman have a dream and figure out every facet of the enemy's plan? Just makes no sense. It's like he's actually awake asking zod questions, then he wakes up and it was a dream.

Yet he still knows what he dreamed was true.

Sandtrap · March 28, 2016, 12:13:18 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on March 28, 2016, 12:07:31 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM
Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well

I haven't seen BvS yet, but in MoS they are done very well. At least in the technical sense. They just fail the sniff test of reality. Someone like Zod wouldn't try to terrify someone into stopping him. There's no other outcome to that particular imagry. It's pretty, beautiful even. But it makes zero sense when you think about what he's trying to accomplish.

Well, here's a quick theory off the top of my head. Just for shits.

Maybe the technology being used to create the communications in dream sequences is more fine tuned to what a person has deep inside of their sub-conscious. As in, somebody has limited control over what they can create and show other people, because the technology goes into their true sub-conscious.

Maybe Zod wasn't able to convey peace and bunnies with kryptonians and humans living together, because to Zod, that peace wasn't a real option in his mind. To Zod and other kryptonians, humans were an inferior species. And to Zod, maybe his truly deep sub-conscious vision of peace was what we saw.

Kryptonians ruling again.

Solonoid · March 28, 2016, 12:21:14 AM

The flaw in BvS was definitely a complete lack of logic behind the villain's motives.

Spoiler

Why would Lex make Doomsday to kill Superman, when Doomsday would just turn around and destroy the world?

Like, seriously, Lex was a cheap TDK Joker knockoff.

Nobody seemed to be motivated by anything.

I absolutely love The Flash though.
I give the film a perfect 5/7 just on that.

MyNameIsCharlie · March 28, 2016, 12:23:07 AM

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 28, 2016, 12:13:18 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on March 28, 2016, 12:07:31 AM
Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM
Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well

I haven't seen BvS yet, but in MoS they are done very well. At least in the technical sense. They just fail the sniff test of reality. Someone like Zod wouldn't try to terrify someone into stopping him. There's no other outcome to that particular imagry. It's pretty, beautiful even. But it makes zero sense when you think about what he's trying to accomplish.

Well, here's a quick theory off the top of my head. Just for shits.

Maybe the technology being used to create the communications in dream sequences is more fine tuned to what a person has deep inside of their sub-conscious. As in, somebody has limited control over what they can create and show other people, because the technology goes into their true sub-conscious.

Maybe Zod wasn't able to convey peace and bunnies with kryptonians and humans living together, because to Zod, that peace wasn't a real option in his mind. To Zod and other kryptonians, humans were an inferior species. And to Zod, maybe his truly deep sub-conscious vision of peace was what we saw.

Kryptonians ruling again.

I don't buy that. He was able to enter Kal-El's mind and communicate. His conscious mind and subconscious mind were aligned. You saw this in his final battle. He forced Superman to kill him because he was robbed of his purpose. That fight was a suicide. If he wanted to kill everyone on Earth, he just had to flee and start doing it. But he chose to fight and lose.

That imagry was chosen to manipulate the audience. It was dumbed down the way I Am Legend was. It was chosen to say, you are stupid, and if, I the director don't show you what's good and bad, you won't get it. It wasn't aimed at Kal-El, it was aimed at you and me.

That's what killed the Star Wars prequels. Choosing dichotomy and pretty imagry over smart story telling.

A Cheese Potato · March 28, 2016, 12:26:27 AM

Quote from: Solonoid on March 28, 2016, 12:21:14 AM

The flaw in BvS was definitely a complete lack of logic behind the villain's motives.

Spoiler
Why would Lex make Doomsday to kill Superman, when Doomsday would just turn around and destroy the world?

Like, seriously, Lex was a cheap TDK Joker knockoff.

Nobody seemed to be motivated by anything.

I absolutely love The Flash though.
I give the film a perfect 5/7 just on that.

Spoiler

the flash can run so fast he can run into peoples dreams

Solonoid · March 28, 2016, 12:29:28 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM

Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well

I thought they were fucking 10/10 in BvS.

Bruce's dreams, or rather, visions, foreshadow an impossibly tall conflict coming, and puts Superman right in the middle of it.

Probably the most effective storytelling in the series to date.

MyNameIsCharlie · March 28, 2016, 12:58:46 AM

I do have to give MoS a 10/10 on imagry. Not for the Murrica and Jesus shit.

Every father looks forward to seeing their son with the red cape and believing the world's problems are small enough (or that their son is big enough) to handle them. As a dad of two boys, I relate to this. One day my boys will believe themselves superheroes that can go out and fix the world. All I can do is smile and support them.

Doctor Doom · March 28, 2016, 01:33:19 AM

Quote from: A Cheese Potato on March 28, 2016, 12:26:27 AM

Spoiler
the flash can run so fast he can run into peoples dreams

Elai · March 28, 2016, 10:57:37 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on March 27, 2016, 11:55:20 PM

When Kal-El is initially brought on Zod's ship, he passes out and Zod communicated with him Matrix style. Why did he choose that particular imagry? Being sucked under by a sea of skulls? Zod basically sold him on stopping him. He could have shown him anything. That imagry said: I'm a villain, please stop me.

The short answer: Zack's a hack. He chose a shot that looked cool instead of one that made sense.

I'm sure there's some sort of excuse the fanboys have come up with though, how the conversation was both chosen by Zod and somewhat influenced by Kal-El's subconscious or something.

Quote

Maybe this is why BvS is being rated so poorly. Zod is has a goal anyone could relate to. The preservation of his people. Yet Snyder chose such a black and white way to tell the audience of a very grey area. Maybe this flaw is in BvS too.

It's one of BvS's flaws, but I'd hardly call it the worst offender.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 11:06:43 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:11:19 AM

It's like he's actually awake asking zod questions, then he wakes up and it was a dream.

Zod is communicating with Kal-El in the dream sequence, though.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 11:07:23 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM

Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well.

Quote from: Solonoid on March 28, 2016, 12:29:28 AM

I thought they were fucking 10/10 in BvS.

Bruce's dreams, or rather, visions, foreshadow an impossibly tall conflict coming, and puts Superman right in the middle of it.

Probably the most effective storytelling in the series to date.

I have to agree with Sol, here. The Knightmare sequence was the coolest part of the film. it's just a shame that it has virtually no bearing on the overall narrative at all, and only really exists because there hadn't been an action scene in 20+ minutes at that point.

As for Man of Steel, I still disagree. The dream sequence there is actually not too bad, either. Snyder is a fairly intelligent director, at least, as far as visuals go. Did you notice that when Kal-El goes from his Kansas attire to his Kryptonian garb, it's full black instead of the traditional red-and-blue? This is because black is the standard colour of Kryptonian outfits if you're military. Zod's consciousness is affecting the visual representation of Kal-El in his own mind, because Zod sees Kal as another subordinate to order around. This is why he virtually makes no effort whatsoever to "soften" the impact of revealing his plans to Kal -- he simply doesn't view his opinion with favour or relevance whatsoever. Perhaps some part of him influenced the "sinking into skulls" imagery as some sort of sadistic guilty pleasure of his. Who knows.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 11:07:53 AM

All of my problems with MoS, Shannon was so good as Zod.

R o c k e t · March 28, 2016, 12:37:33 PM

Quote from: Eli on March 28, 2016, 11:06:43 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:11:19 AM
It's like he's actually awake asking zod questions, then he wakes up and it was a dream.

Zod is communicating with Kal-El in the dream sequence, though.

And he is able to communicate with people through their dreams, how? Superman hasn't done that, and Zod hadn't been exposed to earth's atmosphere yet to get that power boost.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 12:38:44 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:37:33 PM

And he is able to communicate with people through their dreams, how? Superman hasn't done that, and Zod hadn't been exposed to earth's atmosphere yet to get that power boost.

Kryptonian tech. We've already been shown that they were able to plant their consciousness into inorganic material (Jor-El's A.I. was Jor-El, for example.)

Sandtrap · March 28, 2016, 12:39:44 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:37:33 PM

Quote from: Eli on March 28, 2016, 11:06:43 AM
Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:11:19 AM
It's like he's actually awake asking zod questions, then he wakes up and it was a dream.

Zod is communicating with Kal-El in the dream sequence, though.

And he is able to communicate with people through their dreams, how? Superman hasn't done that, and Zod hadn't been exposed to earth's atmosphere yet to get that power boost.

Kryptonian Tech you herp derp.

R o c k e t · March 28, 2016, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Eli on March 28, 2016, 12:38:44 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:37:33 PM
And he is able to communicate with people through their dreams, how? Superman hasn't done that, and Zod hadn't been exposed to earth's atmosphere yet to get that power boost.

Kryptonian tech. We've already been shown that they were able to plant their consciousness into inorganic material (Jor-El's A.I. was Jor-El, for example.)

My problem with it is we weren't told that directly. We just see a dream, Zod tells his plan during the dream, and we are just supposed to accept it.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 12:43:13 PM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:40:43 PM

My problem with it is we weren't told that directly. We just see a dream, Zod tells his plan during the dream, and we are just supposed to accept it.

Yeah... I've got nothing to comfort you, lol. Personally, I think there are worse offenses in the movie than what is essentially telepathy.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 01:17:52 PM

YouTube

This is the meaning of life.

RomanGladiator · March 28, 2016, 01:58:05 PM

I'm watching it now for the first time. Clark's father just died.

MyNameIsCharlie · March 28, 2016, 02:35:32 PM

Quote from: Eli on March 28, 2016, 11:07:23 AM

Quote from: Rocketman287 on March 28, 2016, 12:04:08 AM
Snyder's dream sequences in Man of Steel and BvS are just not done well.

Quote from: Solonoid on March 28, 2016, 12:29:28 AM
I thought they were fucking 10/10 in BvS.

Bruce's dreams, or rather, visions, foreshadow an impossibly tall conflict coming, and puts Superman right in the middle of it.

Probably the most effective storytelling in the series to date.

I have to agree with Sol, here. The Knightmare sequence was the coolest part of the film. it's just a shame that it has virtually no bearing on the overall narrative at all, and only really exists because there hadn't been an action scene in 20+ minutes at that point.

As for Man of Steel, I still disagree. The dream sequence there is actually not too bad, either. Snyder is a fairly intelligent director, at least, as far as visuals go. Did you notice that when Kal-El goes from his Kansas attire to his Kryptonian garb, it's full black instead of the traditional red-and-blue? This is because black is the standard colour of Kryptonian outfits if you're military. Zod's consciousness is affecting the visual representation of Kal-El in his own mind, because Zod sees Kal as another subordinate to order around. This is why he virtually makes no effort whatsoever to "soften" the impact of revealing his plans to Kal -- he simply doesn't view his opinion with favour or relevance whatsoever. Perhaps some part of him influenced the "sinking into skulls" imagery as some sort of sadistic guilty pleasure of his. Who knows.

But we aren't shown Zod as a sadist. He doesn't appear to take joy in what he does, he does it because it's a necessity. There could be an argument made for him taking his revenge on Kal because of what happened with Jor. But we are never shown really anything other than the repeated I will find hims as evidence of this. In fact, we are shown the opposite. He acts in a diplomatic manner when Kal is on his ship. If he was hell bent on hurting him, he could have just attacked him right there. Instead he transferred him to a medical bay and saw to him there.

The dream sequence would have been better if it took place after they had fought.

This points to Snyder choosing simplistic messages and pretty imagry over good story telling.

A better sequence of events would have been Kal surrendering, they Kryptonians searching his old home, hurting Martha, causing Kal to realize the Kryptonians are here with bad intentions. Kal confronts Zod about this, after telling him of Jor's vision of Kryptonians leading humanity "into the Sun." Zod gets angry at yet another El refuting his visions, and shows Kal the dream to punish him and seal his revenge on the house of El.

Then Zod's behavior fits with what he's trying to accomplish. It isn't just the securing his race, but the validation of his revenge.

What Zod lacked was character development. He's a nuanced character with a single view. The events we're shown don't convey that.

We needed to be shown and reminded that he's not acting as just his races savior. He's more a Captain Ahab chasing the House of El as his white whale.

This would have also closed the loophole of why Earth was chosen for terraforming instead of another world. The Kryptonians only needed the Genisis chamber and the Codex to start their race anywhere. They had interstellar capabilities. They could have gone to any world and dropped the World Engine.

Zod chose Earth not for expediency's sake, but because he was still punishing Jor El for not standing with him during the coup.

But we are never shown this.

Solonoid · March 28, 2016, 02:35:55 PM

Quote from: RomanGladiator on March 28, 2016, 01:58:05 PM

I'm watching it now for the first time. Clark's father just died.

Man of Steel, in my opinion, is the definitive Superman film.

The Reeve movies were full of inconsistencies and convenient plot happenstances, not to mention unexplainable actions and ridiculous all around bullshit.

And don't even get me started on Superman Returns.

The only reproachable thing about Man of Steel is its very much Elseworlds, but that shouldn't be considers a bad thing.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 03:38:03 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on March 28, 2016, 02:35:32 PM

But we aren't shown Zod as a sadist.

You're right. I was mostly free-styling that part, anyway.

Quote

What Zod lacked was character development. He's a nuanced character with a single view. The events we're shown don't convey that.

I would argue that all Kryptonians were, by nature, a basic and one-dimensional people. They were genetically engineered to be have one purpose; a predestined role in society. It should follow that the leader of the Kryptonian military, a force which is designed to protect and preserve the Kryptonian race, would only be concerned with following that directive. By any means.

It's pretty lazy writing if you ask me.

Quote

We needed to be shown and reminded that he's not acting as just his races savior. He's more a Captain Ahab chasing the House of El as his white whale.

This is an awesome analysis. I'm adopting it.

Doctor Doom · March 28, 2016, 08:31:02 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on March 28, 2016, 02:35:32 PM

We needed to be shown and reminded that he's not acting as just his races savior. He's more a Captain Ahab chasing the House of El as his white whale.

Superman is Venom Snake confirmed.

Elai · March 28, 2016, 09:28:26 PM

Quote from: Caped Baldy on March 28, 2016, 08:31:02 PM

Superman is Venom Snake confirmed.