Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 24, 2016, 09:36:24 AM

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 09:30:57 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 24, 2016, 08:49:48 AM

She manipulated Jesse to get all of his money and run away to be druggies. If you really think she loved Jesse you're blind. Once the money ran out you think she would stay with Jesse? Or would she run back to daddy and "get sober again"?

I'm not saying she was a bad person, she just didn't care for Jesse like he did for her. The death was still super impact tho.

Jesse didn't have any money, Walt was holding it from him. They had to leave the next morning or she was getting the cops called on her; that was why she borderline blackmailed Walt into giving Jesse his money. Not out of "manipulation". If they managed to tear through all of it, her father would be the last place she'd turn.

I don't know why you think she didn't care about Jesse. She was clean before he came into the picture, and only started using with him out of sympathy after Combo died. If she only wanted the money, she would've done exactly what Walt did, but with Jesse. She reminded Jesse to sleep on his side, even after Walt already gave Jesse his cash. At that point, she could've let him die if she didn't care about him.

They obviously loved each other. Say what you want about Jane as a person. She may have been weak and irresponsible, but she pretty much threw away all she had (stable job, clean of drugs, support group) because of Jesse.

The only thing she threw away was what her father wanted for her. She didn't start using again because she felt bad for Jesse, she started using again because that's what she wanted.

She found out about the money and did a complete turn around.

I have no idea where you get that leap of logic from. She didn't even know about the money until the second to last episode she was alive, and wanted it to secure a future for her and Jesse.

Literally nothing indicated it was some scheme to get the money from Jesse. Almost every scene she's in, except for those where she's logically angry with Jesse, has her oozing affection for him. It wasn't a long con to get at money she didn't even know existed. And if she was so eager to use as you're trying to say, she would've done it from the start, when Jesse offered it to her on multiple occasions. It wasn't until Jesse needed someone to console him after Combo's death (and he was smoking crystal even more heavily) that Jane finally gave in and did it for him.

She knew he was a drug dealer and knew he had money. The very first conversation they have is about money. When she finds our just how much he has her attitude changes completely and all of a sudden she wants to leave with him and start a life together.

You don't console people by getting them to do heroin with you. Crystal is bad enough.

all i can really think of is the dead children in the kids' section of arlington library, fallout 3

Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 24, 2016, 10:47:27 AM

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 09:41:52 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 24, 2016, 09:36:24 AM

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 09:30:57 AM

Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 24, 2016, 08:49:48 AM

She manipulated Jesse to get all of his money and run away to be druggies. If you really think she loved Jesse you're blind. Once the money ran out you think she would stay with Jesse? Or would she run back to daddy and "get sober again"?

I'm not saying she was a bad person, she just didn't care for Jesse like he did for her. The death was still super impact tho.

Jesse didn't have any money, Walt was holding it from him. They had to leave the next morning or she was getting the cops called on her; that was why she borderline blackmailed Walt into giving Jesse his money. Not out of "manipulation". If they managed to tear through all of it, her father would be the last place she'd turn.

I don't know why you think she didn't care about Jesse. She was clean before he came into the picture, and only started using with him out of sympathy after Combo died. If she only wanted the money, she would've done exactly what Walt did, but with Jesse. She reminded Jesse to sleep on his side, even after Walt already gave Jesse his cash. At that point, she could've let him die if she didn't care about him.

They obviously loved each other. Say what you want about Jane as a person. She may have been weak and irresponsible, but she pretty much threw away all she had (stable job, clean of drugs, support group) because of Jesse.

The only thing she threw away was what her father wanted for her. She didn't start using again because she felt bad for Jesse, she started using again because that's what she wanted.

She found out about the money and did a complete turn around.

I have no idea where you get that leap of logic from. She didn't even know about the money until the second to last episode she was alive, and wanted it to secure a future for her and Jesse.

Literally nothing indicated it was some scheme to get the money from Jesse. Almost every scene she's in, except for those where she's logically angry with Jesse, has her oozing affection for him. It wasn't a long con to get at money she didn't even know existed. And if she was so eager to use as you're trying to say, she would've done it from the start, when Jesse offered it to her on multiple occasions. It wasn't until Jesse needed someone to console him after Combo's death (and he was smoking crystal even more heavily) that Jane finally gave in and did it for him.

She knew he was a drug dealer and knew he had money. The very first conversation they have is about money. When she finds our just how much he has her attitude changes completely and all of a sudden she wants to leave with him and start a life together.

You don't console people by getting them to do heroin with you. Crystal is bad enough.

You still haven't addressed the fact that he offered her meth on numerous occasions before Combo died and she refused every time. Jane wasn't using drugs to console Jesse, Jesse was doing drugs but Jane wanted to console him. It wasn't until that moment that she gave in and started using again.

This attitude change you're talking about never happened. She wanted to run off with Jesse because she had to leave town anyway. Her father was going to call the cops on her if she wasn't ready for him in the morning.

Jesse was the one who got her using again, she didn't have some selfish master plot to manipulate Jesse into giving her his money. Look at the way she acted around him even before she knew he had money.

You're making out a tragic, needlessly sacrificial character into a villain for no reason. She was an antagonist to Walt, but he's the actual villain here.

The entire point of the show us that no one is in the right. You want to hang on to her being a decent person that cares about Jesse then fine. She was a drug addict who did nothing to help Jesse, and turned him on to heroin.

She's a fucking plot point.

Lol I watched the same scenes, everything you think about her is conjecture too.

This was one of many "clean" periods in her life. Her father says as much when he's talking to Walt.

She's not a bad person, she's flawed, but she didn't have Jesse's well-being in mind when she encouraged him to do drugs.

When she talks about running away together and getting clean she clearly doesn't mean it. They chose to get high instead and that's the night she dies.

Lol I watched the same scenes, everything you think about her is conjecture too.

Three points you have yet to refute:

1.) She was offered drugs by Jesse at many points before she actually gave in. If she was truly this cyclical drug addict you're painting her as, she'd leap at the opportunity to do drugs for free. Why did she wait to do drugs for all that time, and only do them when Jesse needed someone to console him?

2.) Why did Jane show blatant affection to him before she knew about any money or had anything in it for her other than Jesse reciprocating those feelings?

3.) Once Jesse and Jane had the money, and they were both strung out on heroin, Jane went to great lengths to remind him to sleep on his side. She chose to fall asleep with him instead of tampering with anything. If all she cared about was drugs and money, why didn't she pull a Walter and kill him through flipping him on his back?

"Conjecture".

she didn't have Jesse's well-being in mind when she encouraged him to do drugs.

She discouraged him from doing drugs. She didn't even allow him to smoke in the apartment. It wasn't until he got her hooked on meth that she enabled (far from encouraged) his drug use.

When she talks about running away together and getting clean she clearly doesn't mean it. They chose to get high instead and that's the night she dies.

She's addicted at that point, of course she doesn't mean it. They would fly to New Zealand and do a bunch of drugs, essentially. But she's still in love with Jesse, and wants to spend that time doing drugs with him.

As a non-drug user, you can say that neither loved each other because you can't love someone if you enable them to do harmful things. But that's just not true. Jesse and Jane were both addicted near the end. They were bad influences on each other, and Jesse never would've gone to rehab if Jane lived. But that doesn't mean they didn't love each other.

Jane's portrayal is one of an irresponsible, damaged girl with daddy issues, not one of a cold-hearted manipulator. She wanted drugs when Jesse got her off the wagon, but she wanted Jesse himself just as much.

in the beginning of homefront, some officers shoot a couple as their kid watches and that makes me sad

I couldn't take anything in the CoD campaigns seriously after MW2.

CoD4 and WaW were just done so well that everything else seemed either too over the top or just not enough for me to care. I can't even remember half the shit in MW3.

General Shepherd's betrayal in MW2's campaign. I wasn't even satisfied in killing him at the end of the game. It wasn't enough. He had an easy death.

1. People who are recovering drug addicts don't jump at every chance to do drugs. She knew who he was, she knew what he was doing, she allowed him to stay anyway. If you're real concerned with your sobriety you don't risk it by allowing a drug dealer to stay next door.

2. Again, she knew he was a drug dealer and that he made decent money. IIRC one is the reasons he's allowed to stay is because she charges him more. I'm not saying that her only motivation was drugs and money. She probably cared for him, it just want her primary concern.

3. Never said she only wanted the drugs and money. Jumping from junkie to murderer is a pretty big stretch hoss. She could have took off with the money I suppose. Like I said previously she cares for him, but it's not her primary concern.


Drug addicts are always addicted, you don't stop addictive behavior on a whim. She had one year sobriety and allowed a drug dealer to move in next door. Either she's a complete fucking moron or she wanted to be tempted.

I think we're more on the same page than I initially thought. At first I thought you were implying Jane's entire relationship with Jesse was a long game of manipulation she was playing on him to get the money. I agree with everything you said about addiction, getting drugs was definitely a priority for her near the end. I still hold that she loved Jesse, though, at least in the scope of her life. Jesse is a good person at heart, and I don't feel like she ever really met someone like that.

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 05:57:35 AM

It was never stated that he made Grey Matter what it was. That's what Walt said in his rants, but it's obvious he hates the company and the two of them because of his feelings for Gretchen. With all the lies and justifcations he spins throughout the show, I'd be honestly surprised if he acted as anything more than a 50-50 contributor with Elliott.

What? He clearly said everything they have is built off of his research and work. That's the point, Walt is a genius.

Uh, exactly. He said it. He lies all the time, that's his thing. He lies to his family, to himself, to the audience. There's no denying Walt is a genius, but let's not pretend he built up Grey Matter himself and then threw Elliot a bone by sticking his name in there. Think what we know about Walt; would he really be willing to share half of his company's name with someone else if he did all of the work? The whole "they cut ME out of a business that I ALONE made" is Walt bullshit 101.

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 05:57:35 AM

Mike isn't morally correct at all, but he was certainly a better person and more competent criminal than Walt.

Duh?

He wasn't a better person lol, he literally killed people for a living. You can call the people he kills "scumbags" all you want to try and justify it but it doesn't change the fact that he'd kill anybody he needed to.

He was definitely a better person. Mike killed people who, at the end of the day, knew what they were getting into. He didn't kill people to fuel his ego, to fuel his agenda, he killed people who, because of criminal politics, had to die. He was a cleaner, sure, and that's far from a moral job. But the job itself is up there with drug manufacturer. It's the difference in their actions, not occupations, that show Walt is far more of a shitty person than Mike. Mike would never kill a civilian like Jane or poison a child like Brock.

Everything he did was to keep his family out of the shitter.

No. The show straight up refutes you. "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was really....I was alive."

Sure, his ego got the best of him and things also went wildly out of control, but even when his family hates him he tries to send them money, and still achieved it by having Gretchen and Elliot give it to them.

And the reason he did all that was to be the provider. To be recognized, finally, as the successful and competent man he just knows he is. It's 100% about his pride.

And Jane was a criminal junky. She blackmailed Walt and was going to ruin Jesse. Walt letting her die is justified, honestly. They would've both overdosed either way. At least he saved Jesse.

Jane wasn't a criminal, first of all. She was a civilian. She was clean, off drugs, until Jesse entered her life. She only had to blackmail Walt because Walt wasn't giving Jesse the money that was Jesse's. Him murdering her wasn't justified. If they would've went to New Zealand and OD'd, that would've been on them. Since Walt murdered her, it's on him.

It was never explained exactly why he left, but we're left to assume it was because he had feelings for Gretchen and she went for Elliot instead.

Exactly, he was hurt and ashamed. He felt betrayed, and he, in Walt fashion, let his emotions overtake his reasoning. He wasn't forced out of this profitable company, his ideas weren't stolen. He left because Gretchen didn't reciprocate his feelings. That's on him.

He was a legendary kingpin far greater than Gus.

No, he wasn't. Gus ran a tightly wound criminal empire for decades. Gus made more money than he could spend in lifetimes and more connections than a mafia don would need. He was feared, respected, and in the end, accomplished his singular goal of getting revenge on the cartel. Gus never got national publicity for being a drug kingpin because he was a good drug kingpin, never caught by police. Gus was far greater and more successful than Walt could dream. He represented what Walt wanted - huge, unstoppable criminal empire in his name - but wasn't calm and patient enough to get.

I think you're focusing too hard on the whole ego thing. That was a part but not the whole of the story.

That was the story. The story is all about stasis and transformation. When we first saw Walt, he appeared a mild mannered, logical, personally detatched man. But he's really the opposite: rash, emotional, and too connected with people for his own good.

I rest my case your honor.

Also when the medic dies in saving private Ryan I ball like a child. Every fucking time.

Quote from: Little Willie on April 24, 2016, 04:18:02 PM

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 09:53:12 AM

She was the only civilian that Walt killed.

So what characters did Walt kill who were either in the military or the policy force(I'm not counting Mike since he's not a cop anymore)?

Civilian = non-criminal

Marie is a civilian, Lydia is a criminal. Almost every civilian in the show lives, almost every criminal dies.

Civilian = a person not in the armed services or the police force.

You should have used the term innocent instead.

Quote from: Little Willie on April 25, 2016, 04:18:26 AM

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 04:55:58 PM

Quote from: Little Willie on April 24, 2016, 04:18:02 PM

Quote from: ALIE on April 24, 2016, 09:53:12 AM

She was the only civilian that Walt killed.

So what characters did Walt kill who were either in the military or the policy force(I'm not counting Mike since he's not a cop anymore)?

Civilian = non-criminal

Marie is a civilian, Lydia is a criminal. Almost every civilian in the show lives, almost every criminal dies.

Civilian = a person not in the armed services or the police force.

You should have used the term innocent instead.

You have your definition of civilian, I have mine.

No one is innocent. It would be dumb to use that word for anyone in Breaking Bad especially. Even Marie or Gretchen isn't innocent.

Even the kid on the dirt bike?