Why Do People Get Upset About Removing the Pledge?

PSU · October 11, 2014, 04:02:13 PM

ITT: Atheists try to debate and lose horribly.

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:03:18 PM

Quote from: God on October 11, 2014, 03:53:20 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
Aside from faith, we have ancient historical texts.

Dear Me, this whole time I've managed to think your were really trying to make some kind of serious argument and just had a poor grasp of how language worked. But your really meant exactly what you said exactly the way you said it?

I think I've fracking trolled myself.

Don't get upset, there's far more to the argument.

From Anselm himself: "Therefore, Lord, who grant understanding to faith, grant me that, in so far as you know it beneficial, I understand that you are as we believe and you are that which we believe. Now we believe that you are something than which nothing greater can be imagined.

Then is there no such nature, since the fool has said in his heart: God is not? But certainly this same fool, when he hears this very thing that I am saying - something than which nothing greater can be imagined - understands what he hears; and what he understands is in his understanding, even if he does not understand that it is. For it is one thing for a thing to be in the understanding and another to understand that a thing is.

For when a painter imagines beforehand what he is going to make, he has in his undertanding what he has not yet made but he does not yet understand that it is. But when he has already painted it, he both has in his understanding what he has already painted and understands that it is.
Therefore even the fool is bound to agree that there is at least in the understanding something than which nothing greater can be imagined, because when he hears this he understands it, and whatever is understood is in the understanding.

And certainly that than which a greater cannot be imagined cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater. Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined. But certainly this cannot be. There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality."

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:03:37 PM

Quote from: PSU on October 11, 2014, 04:02:13 PM

ITT: Atheists try to debate and lose horribly.

Not really.

Craig Rock isn't even presenting an argument for a theistic God. He's saying that the Universe would've had a prime mover, and then calling whatever that may be God.

It's making a mockery of what people like you actually believe.

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:04:50 PM

Quote from: Naja on October 11, 2014, 03:56:14 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
Quote from: God on October 11, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 03:29:17 PM
It must have taken the supernatural for our universe to exist as it is. We know God must exist in order for everything else to exist. Something cannot come from nothing, not naturally anyway.

You didn't answer the question. Why do you keep calling God "him" if you don't know what it is?
Aside from faith, we have ancient historical texts.

Don't mean to sound like a bitch but the Bible, Torah and Quran are not historical texts.

Back in ancient times people believed the world was flat, didn't make it true.

That's why the Bible isn't necessarily evidence of God, it's simply a cultural guideline.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:05:17 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:03:18 PM

Gaunilo of Marmoutiers was a contemporary of Anselm's who effectively consigned much of his ontological argument to the gutter.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:06:07 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:04:50 PM

That's why the Bible isn't necessarily evidence of God, it's simply a cultural guideline.

If anybody believes that, their understanding of biblical literature is to be so nonsensical as to not even possibly qualify as wrong.

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:07:12 PM

Quote from: PSU on October 11, 2014, 04:02:13 PM

ITT: Atheists try to debate and lose horribly.

I think they had a fighting chance, they were simply lost in their overconfidence of their argument (edginess).

PSU · October 11, 2014, 04:07:30 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:03:37 PM

Quote from: PSU on October 11, 2014, 04:02:13 PM
ITT: Atheists try to debate and lose horribly.
Not really.

Craig Rock isn't even presenting an argument for a theistic God. He's saying that the Universe would've had a prime mover, and then calling whatever that may be God.

It's making a mockery of what people like you actually believe.

People like me?

What do I believe again?

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:09:08 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:06:07 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:04:50 PM
That's why the Bible isn't necessarily evidence of God, it's simply a cultural guideline.
If anybody believes that, their understanding of biblical literature is to be so nonsensical as to not even possibly qualify as wrong.

Then what is your understanding of biblical literature?

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:11:03 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:09:08 PM

Then what is your understanding of biblical literature?

The Bible derives its moral authority by dint of being divine revelation. Are you to tell me that stories of God punishing people for their crimes is a "cultural guideline" instead of a codified form of (divine) morality? Don't be absurd.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:12:23 PM

Quote from: PSU on October 11, 2014, 04:07:30 PM

People like me?

What do I believe again?

You're a Lutheran Protestant.

Camnator · October 11, 2014, 04:13:22 PM

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More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:14:08 PM

Quote from: Camnator on October 11, 2014, 04:13:22 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:00:35 PM
Spoiler
Don't bother, it's Dustin.

Is it? How did you find that out?

It's really quite obvious, to be honest.

Kinder and Challenger seem to agree, and I'm sure a mod would be willing to verify it if you asked.

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:16:17 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:11:03 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:09:08 PM
Then what is your understanding of biblical literature?
The Bible derives its moral authority by dint of being divine revelation. Are you to tell me that stories of God punishing people for their crimes is a "cultural guideline" instead of a codified form of (divine) morality? Don't be absurd.

You being unable to find a larger meaning from biblical stories, even the more violent ones, doesn't mean those larger meanings aren't there. When Christians read the Bible, they sense those meanings, and they are blessed by its enlightenment. They aren't scowled and with fear because they take the surface meaning of the literature.

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:17:47 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:14:08 PM

Quote from: Camnator on October 11, 2014, 04:13:22 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:00:35 PM
Spoiler
Don't bother, it's Dustin.

Is it? How did you find that out?
It's really quite obvious, to be honest.

Kinder and Challenger seem to agree, and I'm sure a mod would be willing to verify it if you asked.

I already told you I'm not Le Dustin. Why would he be back on the site if he said if he hated this place back on Bungie.net?

God · October 11, 2014, 04:18:50 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:03:37 PM

Craig Rock isn't even presenting an argument for a theistic God. He's saying that the Universe would've had a prime mover, and then calling whatever that may be God.

It's making a mockery of what people like you actually believe.

That's what I thought he was trying to say too, but in the last few posts he clarified he was talking about a theistic god and apparently just doesn't understand that there is a difference between that and a prime mover.

Hell he even just tried to invoke the Ontological argument, which in addition to having been rebuked by Anslem's own contemporaries totally contradicts his previous claims that humans do not know what God is.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:19:40 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:16:17 PM

You being unable to find a larger meaning from biblical stories, even the more violent ones, doesn't mean those larger meanings aren't there.

Don't try to tell me God sending two bears to maul 42 children for insulting a prophet is a metaphor. . .

What about Muslims, and the meanings they find in the Qur'an? Are they finding meanings which are there, or are they just delusional?

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:21:42 PM

Quote from: God on October 11, 2014, 04:18:50 PM

Hell he even just tried to invoke the Ontological argument, which in addition to having been rebuked by Anslem's own contemporaries totally contradicts his previous claims that humans do not know what God is.

Even Plantinga's modern argument relying on modal logic is pretty weak.

Of all the arguments for God's existence, trying to do it ontologically is easily the worst.

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:22:04 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:19:40 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:16:17 PM
You being unable to find a larger meaning from biblical stories, even the more violent ones, doesn't mean those larger meanings aren't there.
Don't try to tell me God sending two bears to maul 42 children for insulting a prophet is a metaphor. . .

What about Muslims, and the meanings they find in the Qur'an? Are they finding meanings which are there, or are they just delusional?

There is a difference between religion and believing in God. Islam has no logical basis for their religion.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:22:24 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:17:47 PM

Why would he be back on the site if he said if he hated this place back on Bungie.net?

All you're doing is making it seem more and more like you're, in fact, Dustin.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:22:47 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:22:04 PM

Islam has no logical basis for their religion.

. . .

I'm sorry, what?

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:29:38 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:22:47 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:22:04 PM
Islam has no logical basis for their religion.
. . .

I'm sorry, what?

Unlike Christianity, which has merit, Islam has very few arguments in its defense.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:30:40 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:29:38 PM

Unlike Christianity, which has merit, Islam has very few arguments in its defense.

I honestly don't even know what to say to that.

I don't think I've ever come across such a stupid sentiment before.

Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:32:42 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:30:40 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:29:38 PM
Unlike Christianity, which has merit, Islam has very few arguments in its defense.
I honestly don't even know what to say to that.

I don't think I've ever come across such a stupid sentiment before.

Islam believes in God, just as Christianity, but they believe in Him only by a matter of faith, without any logic.

God · October 11, 2014, 04:34:13 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:32:42 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:29:38 PM
Unlike Christianity, which has merit, Islam has very few arguments in its defense.
I honestly don't even know what to say to that.

I don't think I've ever come across such a stupid sentiment before.
Islam believes in God, just as Christianity, but they believe in Him only by a matter of faith, without any logic.

Dis gun b gud

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:35:36 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:32:42 PM

Islam believes in God, just as Christianity, but they believe in Him only by a matter of faith, without any logic.

You do realise the ontological argument you've espoused could be used with respect to Allah?

Or anything other you try to define as metaphysically necessary.

challengerX · October 11, 2014, 04:36:44 PM

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challengerX · October 11, 2014, 04:38:23 PM

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Craig Rock · October 11, 2014, 04:39:56 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 11, 2014, 04:35:36 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:32:42 PM
Islam believes in God, just as Christianity, but they believe in Him only by a matter of faith, without any logic.
You do realise the ontological argument you've espoused could be used with respect to Allah?

Or anything other you try to define as metaphysically necessary.

Allah isn't purposeful, like the Christian God. Christianity's God suits to solve the logical problem that the Universe exists from nothing, while Allah is only imagined to woo its followers, unlike Christianity.

More Than Mortal · October 11, 2014, 04:40:52 PM

Quote from: Craig Rock on October 11, 2014, 04:39:56 PM

Allah isn't purposeful, like the Christian God. Christianity's God suits to solve the logical problem that the Universe exists from nothing, while Allah is only imagined to woo its followers, unlike Christianity.

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