For the current situation in Africa - namely Sub-Saharan Africa?Just interested in people's thoughts.
Quote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:45:30 PMFor the current situation in Africa - namely Sub-Saharan Africa?Just interested in people's thoughts.The various European empires that carved up Africa and completely fucked its people over in pursuit of natural resources.
Quote from: Lord Commissar on November 17, 2014, 06:51:00 PMQuote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:45:30 PMFor the current situation in Africa - namely Sub-Saharan Africa?Just interested in people's thoughts.The various European empires that carved up Africa and completely fucked its people over in pursuit of natural resources.Now let me ask - any empire in particular stand out?
Quote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:51:49 PMQuote from: Lord Commissar on November 17, 2014, 06:51:00 PMQuote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:45:30 PMFor the current situation in Africa - namely Sub-Saharan Africa?Just interested in people's thoughts.The various European empires that carved up Africa and completely fucked its people over in pursuit of natural resources.Now let me ask - any empire in particular stand out?The British Empire, but that's the one I know the most about. It's possible that one of the others could have been worse.
Quote from: Lord Commissar on November 17, 2014, 06:53:23 PMQuote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:51:49 PMQuote from: Lord Commissar on November 17, 2014, 06:51:00 PMQuote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:45:30 PMFor the current situation in Africa - namely Sub-Saharan Africa?Just interested in people's thoughts.The various European empires that carved up Africa and completely fucked its people over in pursuit of natural resources.Now let me ask - any empire in particular stand out?The British Empire, but that's the one I know the most about. It's possible that one of the others could have been worse.Ever hear of Belgium's atrocities in the Congo?Early estimates put a Belgian massacre of roughly 10 million citizens, along with amputations of hands on millions more who did not comply with Belgium's effort to get rubber.
Quote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:56:43 PMQuote from: Lord Commissar on November 17, 2014, 06:53:23 PMQuote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:51:49 PMQuote from: Lord Commissar on November 17, 2014, 06:51:00 PMQuote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 06:45:30 PMFor the current situation in Africa - namely Sub-Saharan Africa?Just interested in people's thoughts.The various European empires that carved up Africa and completely fucked its people over in pursuit of natural resources.Now let me ask - any empire in particular stand out?The British Empire, but that's the one I know the most about. It's possible that one of the others could have been worse.Ever hear of Belgium's atrocities in the Congo?Early estimates put a Belgian massacre of roughly 10 million citizens, along with amputations of hands on millions more who did not comply with Belgium's effort to get rubber.I did say the British Empire was the one I knew the most about and was completely open to the fact that I may be wrong due to my limited knowledge of the various activities that the various European Empires engaged in in Africa.
The governments of that region. India and China were raped and pillaged in colonial times as well (china especially w/ opium war and boxer rebellion) and they're both booming atm.
Quote from: Keyu on November 17, 2014, 07:14:20 PMThe governments of that region. India and China were raped and pillaged in colonial times as well (china especially w/ opium war and boxer rebellion) and they're both booming atm.Two completely different scenario's - especially with India. They were colonized by one European power (The British) who built infrastructure, schools, etc. that did benefit the people of India, whether you like them or not.None of that occurred in Africa.
South Africa was definitely colonized and had infrastructure built.
China was not colonized. It was torn apart by Europe and America, and later a civil war and Japan. Its on track to be largest economy in the world.
You can blame colonial powers and any number of issues (such as amount of farm land etc.) But at the end of the day when rule is placed into the power of the native populace they either sink or swim.
Quote from: Keyu on November 17, 2014, 07:20:50 PMSouth Africa was definitely colonized and had infrastructure built.So, one colony out of, what, thirty? Forty? Even South Africa had extreme civil issues leading into the late 20th century, and it can be argued that those issues still exist today. Nearly every other colony was exploited and plundered for resources, with the little infrastructure created simply to transport the resources out. QuoteChina was not colonized. It was torn apart by Europe and America, and later a civil war and Japan. Its on track to be largest economy in the world.Again, you are comparing Apples to Oranges. China has an extremely lengthy history of unity - including construction of some basic infrastructure through European colonization. On top of that, events in the modern history following the World Wars helped booster it's economy unlike what is capable in Sub-Saharan Africa.QuoteYou can blame colonial powers and any number of issues (such as amount of farm land etc.) But at the end of the day when rule is placed into the power of the native populace they either sink or swim.Yeah, when you have warring tribes and ethnic groups mixed together, something that shouldn't have happened, you wonder why the power has been troublesome.These nations were created with little concern to existing tribes, treaties, and wars. These nations were plundered for resources. And less than fifty years ago in many cases, the Europeans simply packed up, saying "See ya!" and let these people, who (again) should not have been grouped together, kill each other.
So china's history of unity is the reason for its success, but Africa's history of disunity is not the reason for its failure?
Even looking at Africa Kenya, Nigeria and SA are all rising economies while others sink. Nations rise or fall depending on the effectiveness of their govts.
Quote from: Keyu on November 17, 2014, 07:30:54 PMSo china's history of unity is the reason for its success, but Africa's history of disunity is not the reason for its failure?China's unity for thousands of years is, yes. Africa has widely been disjointed, but it was manageable to a degree until the Europeans came in and fucked everything over.QuoteEven looking at Africa Kenya, Nigeria and SA are all rising economies while others sink. Nations rise or fall depending on the effectiveness of their govts.Really? Nigeria's success is from it's oil supply - other than that, it's a torn up country that is currently divided between Islam in the north and Christianity in the South. Sudan had similar problems, and still does despite the split. Kenya's economic success is arguable. South Africa is, as I said above, an exception as it's one of the only countries that the colonizers (Britain) gave a shit about. But like I said, there are still many issues for it. It is nowhere near great.
Nobody.If you live in an inhospitable shit-hole, your culture is going to stagnate. That's just how it works.Notice how all the successful, powerful cultures throughout history have been the ones who LEFT Africa? Yeah, there's a reason for that.
Quote from: challengerX on November 17, 2014, 06:49:13 PMYou realize Europeans colonized other parts of the world and they turned out completely fine
Quote from: Kinder on November 17, 2014, 09:36:33 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 17, 2014, 06:49:13 PMYou realize Europeans colonized other parts of the world and they turned out completely fineYou do realize the European "colonies" in Africa were extremely different than, say, India/Australia/The New World?
Quote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 09:56:58 PMQuote from: Kinder on November 17, 2014, 09:36:33 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 17, 2014, 06:49:13 PMYou realize Europeans colonized other parts of the world and they turned out completely fineYou do realize the European "colonies" in Africa were extremely different than, say, India/Australia/The New World?It was different, and so was the colonization between the Americas and Australia as example.
Quote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 09:56:58 PMQuote from: Kinder on November 17, 2014, 09:36:33 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 17, 2014, 06:49:13 PMYou realize Europeans colonized other parts of the world and they turned out completely fineYou do realize the European "colonies" in Africa were extremely different than, say, India/Australia/The New World?Isn't it arguable that Spain and South America are comparable to England and those shitty African colonies?
Quote from: Kinder on November 17, 2014, 10:09:39 PMQuote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 09:56:58 PMQuote from: Kinder on November 17, 2014, 09:36:33 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 17, 2014, 06:49:13 PMYou realize Europeans colonized other parts of the world and they turned out completely fineYou do realize the European "colonies" in Africa were extremely different than, say, India/Australia/The New World?It was different, and so was the colonization between the Americas and Australia as example.So, you're saying that European colonization of Africa has little effect on the problems that remain today?That's a damn joke, and any credible historian would dismiss you.
Quote from: IcyWind on November 17, 2014, 09:56:58 PMQuote from: Kinder on November 17, 2014, 09:36:33 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 17, 2014, 06:49:13 PMYou realize Europeans colonized other parts of the world and they turned out completely fineYou do realize the European "colonies" in Africa were extremely different than, say, India/Australia/The New World?It was different, and so was the colonization between the Americas and Australia as example.Ethiopia was never colonized but it still remains the same as other African nations. The major causes that make Africa what it is, is it's culture and general history of being less advanced than other civilizations
Oh, it has an effect but to put it as the sole and biggest reason is absurd
Quote from: Kinder on November 17, 2014, 10:15:05 PMOh, it has an effect but to put it as the sole and biggest reason is absurdLet me share something with you.This was a map, done in the 1950's, of the various ethnic groups and tribes in Africa. Each colored blot is a separate group. Today, it's actually believed this image understates the sheer number of various groups, and that the total amount is much higher.These are groups that, historically, likely disagreed with each other. Groups that were at war and should have NEVER been grouped in one nation (You can see the modern lines in black on the image), were suddenly thrown together without a care in the world from the European governments as to who they grouped, or what the fuck their history is.Add, on top of this, the sheer destruction and chaos the Europeans brought in with their "colonization". As I said earlier, a prime example is the Congo, where the Belgian colonizers, under the rule of King Leopold, executed millions and cut off hundred of thousands, if not millions, of hands from native people who refused to assist in the rubber collecting, or just did not do it fast enough.Guess what? These atrocities occurred across much of the continent, under most of the colonizers. They did not give a fuck what they did or who they harmed. Yes, this happened across the globe under exploration and colonization, but it was exponentially worse in Africa. Going back to the Congo, when the Belgians packed up and left in the 1950's, out of millions of citizens, only roughly 20-25 had the equivalent of a college education. So, you can say "Oh, the Europeans had some negative effects, but it was far from the majority!" all you want, but history does not lie. The Europeans took a continent that, yes, was behind, and destroyed it, pillaged it for resources, and left it in chaos. The civil wars and strife that we see today, all remnants of idiocy that came during colonization.
Who is MOST at fault...
