When are we going to admit not all people are equal?

More Than Mortal · December 08, 2014, 12:48:56 PM

You can measure the quality of an entity by, at least, two measures. The first is that it can experience, and the second is its capacity to experience.

By these criteria, we can judge that a dog is more valuable than a rock and that a human is more valuable than a dog. These seem, at least to me, sound conclusions. However, it also brings into question the idea of intra-species hierarchy.

Going by this, we should value the living over the dead, the healthy over the comatose and the young over the old. We should, however, also value the artistic over the boring, the intelligent over the stupid and the powerful over the weak. Some people, by whatever measure, are simply superior to others. Does this, necessarily, equate to justifying oppression and totalitarianism? No, of course not. It's often within the interest of the hierarchs to placate their inferiors.

However, I'm not so interested in the implications as the initial acceptance of the idea. This is my model, you can develop your own. So long as you agree to the idea that people are qualitatively different. I think this justifies a difference in treatment, also, but you may not have to.

EDIT: Nobody denies that people have differences in their ability.

In my experience, quite a lot of people have difficulty admitting there exists a hierarchy in which some are simply superior to others. It seems to offend liberal sentiments.

EDIT II: Okay, maybe I was too cautious with my initial proposition. Does this qualitative difference among people justify either institutional or interpersonal discrimination?

Statefarm · December 08, 2014, 12:51:52 PM

What is your greatest desire?

BrenMan 94 · December 08, 2014, 12:55:31 PM

I don't think anyone denies that not everyone is equal

More Than Mortal · December 08, 2014, 12:57:24 PM

Quote from: Statefarm on December 08, 2014, 12:51:52 PM

What is your greatest desire?

Power.

clum clum · December 08, 2014, 12:57:56 PM

Yeah, not everyone is equal. I don't see anyone not admitting that.

More Than Mortal · December 08, 2014, 12:58:09 PM

Quote from: BrenMan 94 on December 08, 2014, 12:55:31 PM

I don't think anyone denies that not everyone is equal

No, nobody denies that people have differences in their ability.

In my experience, quite a lot of people have difficulty admitting there exists a hierarchy in which some are simply superior to others. It seems to offend liberal sentiments.

Dr. Prof. Science · December 08, 2014, 01:00:40 PM

When we return to being uncivilized kenderparty-goers, Adolf!

Doctor Doom · December 08, 2014, 01:02:18 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 08, 2014, 12:58:09 PM

Quote from: BrenMan 94 on December 08, 2014, 12:55:31 PM
I don't think anyone denies that not everyone is equal
No, nobody denies that people have differences in their ability.

Out of curiosity, I assume you've read Harrison Bergeron?

More Than Mortal · December 08, 2014, 01:02:32 PM

Quote from: Dr. Prof. Science on December 08, 2014, 01:00:40 PM

When we return to being uncivilized kenderparty-goers, Adolf!

People are unequal, not races.

If collectivism is a cancer, then racial collectivism is cancer of the brain.

More Than Mortal · December 08, 2014, 01:03:11 PM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on December 08, 2014, 01:02:18 PM

Out of curiosity, I assume you've read Harrison Bergeron?

I'm ashamed to admit I've never read anything by Vonnegut.

Doctor Doom · December 08, 2014, 01:04:23 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 08, 2014, 01:03:11 PM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on December 08, 2014, 01:02:18 PM
Out of curiosity, I assume you've read Harrison Bergeron?
I'm ashamed to admit I've never read anything by Vonnegut.

Unfortunate. You know the story, though?

More Than Mortal · December 08, 2014, 01:06:40 PM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on December 08, 2014, 01:04:23 PM

Unfortunate. You know the story, though?

A cursory glance on Wikipedia tells me it's essentially a criticism of trying to enforce equality of outcome.

R o c k e t · December 08, 2014, 01:10:57 PM

Most people already admit this.

Is there another point to this thread?

More Than Mortal · December 08, 2014, 01:13:46 PM

Quote from: RocketRudolph287 on December 08, 2014, 01:10:57 PM

Most people already admit this.

Is there another point to this thread?

Okay, maybe I was too cautious with my initial proposition. Does this qualitative difference among people justify either institutional or interpersonal discrimination?

Doctor Doom · December 08, 2014, 01:14:39 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 08, 2014, 01:06:40 PM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on December 08, 2014, 01:04:23 PM
Unfortunate. You know the story, though?
A cursory glance on Wikipedia tells me it's essentially a criticism of trying to enforce equality of outcome.

Exactly. A (not-so) perfectly equal society, presented as hellishly as it would be if it were real. This thread reminded me of it, so I wondered if you'd read it.

R o c k e t · December 08, 2014, 01:15:55 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 08, 2014, 01:13:46 PM

Quote from: RocketRudolph287 on December 08, 2014, 01:10:57 PM
Most people already admit this.

Is there another point to this thread?
Okay, maybe I was too cautious with my initial proposition. Does this qualitative difference among people justify either institutional or interpersonal discrimination?

I would say, give people the tools they need to be successful with their talents.
But don't leave the others behind in the dust. Give them a shot, but make opportunities for the talented more accessible.

Discrimination however, no.

Statefarm · December 08, 2014, 01:19:06 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 08, 2014, 12:57:24 PM

Quote from: Statefarm on December 08, 2014, 12:51:52 PM
What is your greatest desire?
Power.

I think mine would be influence. I want to personally effect the world as much as possible.

Anyway, the point is all people are equal in that they desire something. If a human was at least born with a functioning brain, they can desire anything from subconsciously needing basic sustenance, to power. When I argue for equality, I'd be supporting the right for all humans to pursue their reasonable desires. I wouldn't necessarily be arguing all people are physically and mentally equal. Reasonable being the main argument, as the definition has been changed through-out history.

Just something I thought about reading your post. All people are definitely not born capable of the same achievements. Nature and nurture.

Mordo · December 08, 2014, 01:46:59 PM

Yeah, not everyone can be equal.

Everyone should be given equal opportunities and liberties, though.

w/e · December 11, 2014, 03:57:54 PM

I have to bump this thread because I had a thought that might explain the superiority of some.

In the early days superiority was about power over the powerless, because there was nothing else.

Some hundreds of years ago it was about nationality, because the countries were united and close, so there wasn't anything else.

In our society today it is about those who can manipulate data to their liking, whatever their liking is. There are so many things now, and we're coming to the realization that a good job, a good home, and a good family is dull, and not fulfilling, so getting power by infiltrating other peoples' minds is the new power.

I believe that this is why Death Note is so popular. It's about a human that spreads the idea of him being a god by sending messages through killing, and cleansing the world of criminals. He is truly able to infiltrate peoples' minds, and his life turns into something interesting from something generic and boring.

Camnator · December 11, 2014, 06:12:02 PM

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Sprungli · December 11, 2014, 06:14:39 PM

Ah, I totally agree with you but I would just like to point out that in a way everyone is equal as each person plays a role in society, if you were to remove all the "lesser" people those of a higher quality would suddenly be just as useless as the lowest quality people because we all rely on each other.

Sandtrap · December 11, 2014, 06:26:06 PM

Sure thing boss. We're not all equal. Plain as day. However, what should be important, is that you are treated with the same amount of courtesy and respect as other folks, no matter who you are.

We're not all equal. Nobody is. Our minds, our bodies, everything about us, when compared to another person, are different. But the fundamental thing is that we're all people. All Human.

We all feel like shit, we all have problems. Good days, and bad days. Some, more than others. I think the key thing here, is to remember that.

We're not equal in body and mind at all. But at our roots we're all people. So you do your best to treat everybody as they are. People. Just like you.

I worked in a small group of people once. Construction. Hauling the iron support beams into place in a building. A skinny fellow was given the job of helping to move the iron with me.

He was given the job because he was a laborer. And he put on a brave face beause if he said he couldn't do it, he couldn't lift the iron, he'd be laughed at. Wrong kind of equality. Physically, you could see that he couldn't do it. He just couldn't, because of his frame. Not his fault.

So I lifted up the iron with him. And I waited. Stopped when he needed to set it down. I didn't say a word. Didn't laugh, didn't smile, didn't poke fun. I waited until he was ready to go, and we went again. You don't tell folks to do something and think that they can do it alongside you in perfect unision because they are equal. Because that's simply not true.

But you give them the respect and treatment you'd like to be shown.

R o c k e t · December 11, 2014, 06:28:22 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on December 11, 2014, 06:26:06 PM

Sure thing boss. We're not all equal. Plain as day. However, what should be important, is that you are treated with the same amount of courtesy and respect as other folks, no matter who you are.

We're not all equal. Nobody is. Our minds, our bodies, everything about us, when compared to another person, are different. But the fundamental thing is that we're all people. All Human.

We all feel like shit, we all have problems. Good days, and bad days. Some, more than others. I think the key thing here, is to remember that.

We're not equal in body and mind at all. But at our roots we're all people. So you do your best to treat everybody as they are. People. Just like you.

I worked in a small group of people once. Construction. Hauling the iron support beams into place in a building. A skinny fellow was given the job of helping to move the iron with me.

He was given the job because he was a laborer. And he put on a brave face beause if he said he couldn't do it, he couldn't lift the iron, he'd be laughed at. Wrong kind of equality. Physically, you could see that he couldn't do it. He just couldn't, because of his frame. Not his fault.

So I lifted up the iron with him. And I waited. Stopped when he needed to set it down. I didn't say a word. Didn't laugh, didn't smile, didn't poke fun. I waited until he was ready to go, and we went again. You don't tell folks to do something and think that they can do it alongside you in perfect unision because they are equal. Because that's simply not true.

But you give them the respect and treatment you'd like to be shown.

That was perfect. Really.

Camnator · December 11, 2014, 06:31:23 PM

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Sandtrap · December 11, 2014, 06:41:30 PM

Quote from: Camnator on December 11, 2014, 06:31:23 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on December 11, 2014, 06:26:06 PM

Courtesy, yes, but respect must be earned. Don't give it out automatically.

Respect should not automatically be given, but it shouldn't have to be earned either. You aren't some god that needs to be appeased and shown why the subject under your feet should be shown respect. Because you are just as broken as all the other people around you. Viewpoints. Everybody has them. Some things that I do, that I deem respectable for me to do, are viewed in the opposite light by other people.

People do unrespectable things. And they do respectable things. But you do what you can to show them respect plain and simple. You don't let yourself get taken for a ride, obviously.

But you or I aren't above anybody else when it comes who we are. We've made mistakes. Done good things, and bad. In fact, in some cases, showing a little respect to someone who's in the shitter, instead of giving them a boot in the ass and telling them to earn it, can help far more.

Give respect but stand your ground when you're taken for a ride. Simple.

Camnator · December 11, 2014, 06:46:49 PM

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BaconShelf · December 12, 2014, 01:48:22 AM

Spoiler

Going by this, we should value the living over the dead, the healthy over the comatose and the young over the old. We should, however, also value the artistic over the boring, the intelligent over the stupid

I agree with all of this.