We might as well start the countdown...

Isara · April 08, 2015, 02:21:16 PM

To either a political failure between the Eurogroup and Greece, or a success for both, or that will only satisfy the needs of Greece, or certain state members of the EU. Unofficially it has been acknowledged that on April 9th Greece will actually run out of money, and it was predicted that Greece would run out money (earlier, last year) by April 20th, and the current situation in Greece is yelling that; there are very little people spending money, and many stores the last month especially are almost empty, except those in central urban areas who still saw a little amount of people.

So, I am opening this thread to actually discuss the effects it might have on your own country, and the US. Since, at least for Greece, I am quite sure that if people in Athens will wake up without money in their bank accounts an urban warfare will ensure shortly after. (Much worse than the situations throughout the previous government, and I am backing up this theory with general history of the past few years, and the overall mood around the Greek web, but I doubt that it will come to this horrible scenario, albeit other Greeks are pessimistic about Syria's durability in this tense moment of negotiation)

challengerX · April 08, 2015, 02:23:03 PM

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Sandtrap · April 08, 2015, 02:23:51 PM

Question. Are you in any particular way worried about what has a chance of going down for your country?

Isara · April 08, 2015, 02:29:22 PM

Yes, because the capitalistic economy isn't an isolationist one. It'll be a house of cards, some might suffer less than others, though. An unofficial announcement today said that there's enough money to pay retirements, and paychecks, but also the loans. (Although, since it's unofficial, I would like it to be true)

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 08, 2015, 02:23:51 PM

Question. Are you in any particular way worried about what has a chance of going down for your country?

Edit: It also appears the banks are desperately trying on making more loans on their own as of yesterday.

Sandtrap · April 08, 2015, 02:33:19 PM

Quote from: Isara on April 08, 2015, 02:29:22 PM

Yes, because the capitalistic economy isn't an isolationist one. It'll be a house of cards, some might suffer less than others, though. An unofficial announcement today said that there's enough money to pay retirements, and paychecks, but also the loans. (Although, since it's unofficial, I would like it to be true)

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 08, 2015, 02:23:51 PM
Question. Are you in any particular way worried about what has a chance of going down for your country?

Edit: It also appears the banks are desperately trying on making more loans on their own as of yesterday.

Personal level of concern?

You're in university if memory serves. Access to internet has to be payed or said supplier would cut you off.

You think any of those troubles might effect you in any way?

Isara · April 08, 2015, 02:38:31 PM

The state ISP owns the lines (OTE, all of them or most of them in certain areas) so if the country goes bankrupt the semi-private state ISP will also have trouble paying for its own. Honestly, if banks stop working and there's no money it means nobody will be able to pay, nor OTE will be able to pay for paychecks. Electricity is also handled by a semi-private company that owns the whole network-- ΔΕΗ.

Yeah, if the banks do not have any money it will be a systematical collapse by the time things need to be paid. Honestly, I am not sure how terrible it will be. If the economy also collapses like that then nobody will have money, and if nobody has money then nobody can buy anything and nobody will find anyone to sell things to.

And with the savings up in the air? Yeah, it's going to be a fun ride.

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 08, 2015, 02:33:19 PM

Personal level of concern?

You're in university if memory serves. Access to internet has to be payed or said supplier would cut you off.

You think any of those troubles might effect you in any way?

Isara · April 08, 2015, 02:40:35 PM

Source
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/business/dealbook/as-greece-battles-a-debt-crisis-its-banks-issue-more-short-term-debt.html?_r=0

Quote from: Isara on April 08, 2015, 02:29:22 PM

Edit: It also appears the banks are desperately trying on making more loans on their own as of yesterday.

Sandtrap · April 08, 2015, 02:46:52 PM

Quote from: Isara on April 08, 2015, 02:38:31 PM

The state ISP owns the lines (OTE, all of them or most of them in certain areas) so if the country goes bankrupt the semi-private state ISP will also have trouble paying for its own. Honestly, if banks stop working and there's no money it means nobody will be able to pay, nor OTE will be able to pay for paychecks. Electricity is also handled by a semi-private company that owns the whole network-- ΔΕΗ.

Yeah, if the banks do not have any money it will be a systematical collapse by the time things need to be paid. Honestly, I am not sure how terrible it will be. If the economy also collapses like that then nobody will have money, and if nobody has money then nobody can buy anything and nobody will find anyone to sell things to.

And with the savings up in the air? Yeah, it's going to be a fun ride.

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 08, 2015, 02:33:19 PM
Personal level of concern?

You're in university if memory serves. Access to internet has to be payed or said supplier would cut you off.

You think any of those troubles might effect you in any way?

I hope things go well. Or as best as they can given the issues at hand. We forget that we're all separate here despite being able to talk so freely when in reality any one of us or our number could suddenly just be cut off by something.

Greece is not in a warzone but it is in a trouble zone. We forget that behind the apparant face of the user we look at, there's troubles, plans, and futures ahead for all of them.

I hope that whatever stability you have in your life remains stable and that your future isn't compromised by your country's troubles. It would suck to have you go dark from this site.

Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 04:38:22 PM

I'm sure you meant SYRIZA instead of Syria.. >__>

And while this wouldn't affect me personally in the US, it'd affect my family in Greece a great deal since quite a bit of them are either entering, or are already living off of pensions. And for all that money to cut out. That'd be horrible, obviously. I really hope that Greece stays in the EU and Eurozone because they are literally helpless without them. Nobody would be trying to keep them afloat if they were to leave.

challengerX · April 08, 2015, 04:41:20 PM

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Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 04:43:04 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 04:41:20 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:38:22 PM
I really hope that Greece stays in the EU and Eurozone because they are literally helpless without them.

Okay. Greece can go with Russia, since they're such a great nation to be associated with right now.

Or Turkey, since Turkey would absolutely *love* to help Greece.

The EU is really the only local, reliable friend that Greece has. Them leaving the EU would be a catastrophe. And it'd screw me out of living in any other EU country. <____________< (I'm not biased)

challengerX · April 08, 2015, 04:46:23 PM

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Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 04:47:44 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 04:46:23 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:38:22 PM
I really hope that Greece stays in the EU and Eurozone because they are literally helpless without them.

Okay. Greece can go with Russia, since they're such a great nation to be associated with right now.

Or Turkey, since Turkey would absolutely *love* to help Greece.

The EU is really the only local, reliable friend that Greece has. Them leaving the EU would be a catastrophe. And it'd screw me out of living in any other EU country. <____________< (I'm not biased)
The Euro ruined the Mediterranean countries in the EU.

Hardly. Greece has had financial problems since the end of wwII. Their problems go a lot deeper than the EU. In fact, Greece has been more prosperous under the EU than it has at any period of time before. They used to literally be like a 3rd-world country, and now they're 1st world.

Isara · April 08, 2015, 05:03:23 PM

Fat chance, both Turkey and Russia have serious economic issues. I think the US will get involved if it goes to those extremes.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:43:04 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:38:22 PM
I really hope that Greece stays in the EU and Eurozone because they are literally helpless without them.

Okay. Greece can go with Russia, since they're such a great nation to be associated with right now.

Or Turkey, since Turkey would absolutely *love* to help Greece.

The EU is really the only local, reliable friend that Greece has. Them leaving the EU would be a catastrophe. And it'd screw me out of living in any other EU country. <____________< (I'm not biased)

Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 05:06:24 PM

Quote from: Isara on April 08, 2015, 05:03:23 PM

Fat chance, both Turkey and Russia have serious economic issues. I think the US will get involved if it goes to those extremes.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:38:22 PM
I really hope that Greece stays in the EU and Eurozone because they are literally helpless without them.

Okay. Greece can go with Russia, since they're such a great nation to be associated with right now.

Or Turkey, since Turkey would absolutely *love* to help Greece.

The EU is really the only local, reliable friend that Greece has. Them leaving the EU would be a catastrophe. And it'd screw me out of living in any other EU country. <____________< (I'm not biased)

Those parts of the post were sarcasm.

And yeah, really the US is the only player who even has a remote chance of helping Greece if they leave the EU. And even then, let's be serious. That's not happening.

Isara · April 08, 2015, 05:09:54 PM

It likely is since Greece is a critical spot for the region, especially with Ukraine, ISIS and Syria.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 05:06:24 PM

Those parts of the post were sarcasm.

And yeah, really the US is the only player who even has a remote chance of helping Greece if they leave the EU. And even then, let's be serious. That's not happening.

challengerX · April 08, 2015, 05:10:39 PM

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Isara · April 08, 2015, 05:17:07 PM

Well, the other countries have other issues when it comes to Greece. Whose history with the allies dates back when everyone wanted to weaken the Ottoman empire, and coincidentally money and human talent appeared for the early Greek revolution against the Ottomans.

It also involved some of the other Balkan countries, but ultimately, I think that Greece's luck, geography and some political factors made it stand out compared to the neighbor countries. (And it hasn't been long since the war in Bosnia) So, much of the human talent went to Europe, and Greece meanwhile the countries were suffering from the war.

Albania is an example of a country that had that, and Macedonia (FYROM) is one that was many times dissed away when it should have been an ideal diplomatic development for Greece. Instead, in the European agenda, it seems, that isolating and ruining those individual nations is a solid plan.

Mostly, many trade routes that should be available to Greece are not there simply because the previous governments were mainly backing the interests of the EU, not those of Greece or the Greek people most of the time. However, many people overlooked them as the years went on; after all, they had money, and the job recommendation in the public sector, and the EU gladly closed an eye on the skeletons in the closet.

That is, until shit hit the fan.

Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 05:10:39 PM

Which is why all the Mediterranean countries in the Eurozone are doing fucking terrible and can't afford the cost of living?

Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 05:17:43 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 05:10:39 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:47:44 PM
Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 04:46:23 PM
Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:43:04 PM
Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 04:38:22 PM
I really hope that Greece stays in the EU and Eurozone because they are literally helpless without them.

Okay. Greece can go with Russia, since they're such a great nation to be associated with right now.

Or Turkey, since Turkey would absolutely *love* to help Greece.

The EU is really the only local, reliable friend that Greece has. Them leaving the EU would be a catastrophe. And it'd screw me out of living in any other EU country. <____________< (I'm not biased)
The Euro ruined the Mediterranean countries in the EU.
Hardly. Greece has had financial problems since the end of wwII. Their problems go a lot deeper than the EU. In fact, Greece has been more prosperous under the EU than it has at any period of time before. They used to literally be like a 3rd-world country, and now they're 1st world.
Which is why all the Mediterranean countries in the Eurozone are doing fucking terrible and can't afford the cost of living?

If you think they're doing terrible now, you should have seen how they were doing before the EU and Eurozone. Which was far, far worse. It's probably better right now, during all of these recessions/unemployment than it would have been had they not joined the EU to begin with. And let's say nothing about how they were doing before this financial crisis.

Also, the EU/Eurozone had literally nothing to do with these countries going into crisis. What caused it was the pre-existing culture of corruption and tax evasion, so the Governments were spending money that they didn't have. Claiming that EU countries would be better off without the EU is pure populist bullshit.

Like, compare the Mediterranean countries in the EU, with the Mediterranean countries not in the EU, and you'll notice that the living standards in the EU countries are a great deal higher.

Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 05:18:41 PM

EDIT: Meant this to be an edit, not a quote.

Isara · April 08, 2015, 05:20:42 PM

Many countries were also communist in Eastern Europe, and the fall of Communism in the 90's led to many issues, and those countries suffer still from their political and economical changes. Corruption is also more common in this part of Europe because of the mentality attached to political figures, and that's an essential difference between other nations in the western world.

One of the early speeches in the parliament of Tsipras involved that their effort was also to hopefully change the mentality of Greek politics. Some also criticized that as ridiculous, especially the notion that Syriza wants to also change the EU mentality.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 05:17:43 PM

If you think they're doing terrible now, you should have seen how they were doing before the EU and Eurozone. Which was far, far worse. It's probably better right now, during all of these recessions/unemployment than it would have been had they not joined the EU to begin with. And let's say nothing about how they were doing before this financial crisis.

Also, the EU/Eurozone had literally nothing to do with these countries going into crisis. What caused it was the pre-existing culture of corruption and tax evasion, so the Governments were spending money that they didn't have. Claiming that EU countries would be better off without the EU is pure populist bullshit.

Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 05:22:26 PM

Quote from: Isara on April 08, 2015, 05:20:42 PM

Many countries were also communist in Eastern Europe, and the fall of Communism in the 90's led to many issues, and those countries suffer still from their political and economical changes. Corruption is also more common in this part of Europe because of the mentality attached to political figures, and that's an essential difference between other nations in the western world.

One of the early speeches in the parliament of Tsipras involved that their effort was also to hopefully change the mentality of Greek politics. Some also criticized that as ridiculous, especially the notion that Syriza wants to also change the EU mentality.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 05:17:43 PM
If you think they're doing terrible now, you should have seen how they were doing before the EU and Eurozone. Which was far, far worse. It's probably better right now, during all of these recessions/unemployment than it would have been had they not joined the EU to begin with. And let's say nothing about how they were doing before this financial crisis.

Also, the EU/Eurozone had literally nothing to do with these countries going into crisis. What caused it was the pre-existing culture of corruption and tax evasion, so the Governments were spending money that they didn't have. Claiming that EU countries would be better off without the EU is pure populist bullshit.

I know. I really have no idea why people are blaming the EU for this crisis.

Though the EU really shouldn't be admitting any new countries until this crisis passes through (Croatia)....

challengerX · April 08, 2015, 05:23:19 PM

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challengerX · April 08, 2015, 05:24:14 PM

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Isara · April 08, 2015, 05:25:17 PM

The EU is not innocent since it seems to exist only to serve the needs of specific nations in the union, and not the general well-being of the whole union. The EU president is also not democratically elected by the people of the EU. What sort of democratic union doesn't let the people choose their president?

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 05:22:26 PM

I know. I really have no idea why people are blaming the EU for this crisis.

Though the EU really shouldn't be admitting any new countries until this crisis passes through (Croatia)....

Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 05:26:33 PM

Quote from: Isara on April 08, 2015, 05:25:17 PM

The EU is not innocent since it seems to exist only to serve the needs of specific nations in the union, and not the general well-being of the whole union. The EU president is also not democratically elected by the people of the EU. What sort of democratic union doesn't let the people choose their president?

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 05:22:26 PM
I know. I really have no idea why people are blaming the EU for this crisis.

Though the EU really shouldn't be admitting any new countries until this crisis passes through (Croatia)....

That is a major flaw with it. Which is that the people really have no voice in what the EU itself does as an organization. But would it really be better to dismantle the entire union because of that?

Isara · April 08, 2015, 05:27:25 PM

It shouldn't have. Whoever backs Germany wants the Euro as a strong currency, so it appears, anyone who is weak must be punished for it.

Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 05:24:14 PM

And the Euro has made everything astronomically worse.

Isara · April 08, 2015, 05:28:46 PM

Either way it's a bureaucratic mess to go through. It's not as simply going "kthx bye" and everyone walks out of the union. Yet, this kind of conflict in interests could lead to it crashing quite well. (Which it should deserve if it gets any more out of hand)

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 08, 2015, 05:26:33 PM

That is a major flaw with it. Which is that the people really have no voice in what the EU itself does as an organization. But would it really be better to dismantle the entire union because of that?

challengerX · April 08, 2015, 05:29:20 PM

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Not Comms Officer · April 08, 2015, 05:29:31 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 08, 2015, 05:23:19 PM

Which is why all the Mediterranean countries in the Eurozone are doing fucking terrible and can't afford the cost of living?

They haven't done great historically by any means, and these are problems that wouldn't be helped even remotely by dismantling the EU and its institutions. Maybe I'd be willing to compromise on the Euro somewhat.

Quote

Greece hasn't been a great country for a long time. But the point is the EU and the Euro make life in Mediterranean countries considerably worse.

And it will go down the shitter if the EU is dismantled.

Quote

But I'm talking about 1st world Mediterranean countries. Spain, Italy, France. People can barely afford rent because of the Euro.

Hey! Greece is a first world country too!! But I'm not too sure what to say about this. My concern about removing the Euro is that it'd make a huge symbolic impact (a negative one) on the EU, and it could end up being a first step to dismantling the union.