But Charlie, don't you know that raising wages makes prices go up? That's a basic economic principle!
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:46:16 PMBut Charlie, don't you know that raising wages makes prices go up? That's a basic economic principle!But it kinda does?You can't artificially increase value. If costs go up you have to look for something down the pipeline which will inevitably compensate for that, whether it be a reduction in labour or price increases.
New Report Undermines Right-Wing Media Claim That Higher Minimum Wages Threaten Job Creation
Quote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 03:48:32 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:46:16 PMBut Charlie, don't you know that raising wages makes prices go up? That's a basic economic principle!But it kinda does?You can't artificially increase value. If costs go up you have to look for something down the pipeline which will inevitably compensate for that, whether it be a reduction in labour or price increases.Well when the cost of living naturally goes up X% per year, and you haven't gotten a raise in 4 years, your wage is worth less now than it was when you were hired. Either raise minimum wages to keep up with the cost of living, or ditch the minimum wage entirely and admit they don't give a fuck about people making minimum wage.
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:53:27 PMQuote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 03:48:32 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:46:16 PMBut Charlie, don't you know that raising wages makes prices go up? That's a basic economic principle!But it kinda does?You can't artificially increase value. If costs go up you have to look for something down the pipeline which will inevitably compensate for that, whether it be a reduction in labour or price increases.Well when the cost of living naturally goes up X% per year, and you haven't gotten a raise in 4 years, your wage is worth less now than it was when you were hired. Either raise minimum wages to keep up with the cost of living, or ditch the minimum wage entirely and admit they don't give a fuck about people making minimum wage.So you're solution to the apparently exuberant cost of living is to increase the cost of living? Because that's what increasing the minimum wage will end up doing.
Quote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 04:03:36 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:53:27 PMQuote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 03:48:32 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:46:16 PMBut Charlie, don't you know that raising wages makes prices go up? That's a basic economic principle!But it kinda does?You can't artificially increase value. If costs go up you have to look for something down the pipeline which will inevitably compensate for that, whether it be a reduction in labour or price increases.Well when the cost of living naturally goes up X% per year, and you haven't gotten a raise in 4 years, your wage is worth less now than it was when you were hired. Either raise minimum wages to keep up with the cost of living, or ditch the minimum wage entirely and admit they don't give a fuck about people making minimum wage.So you're solution to the apparently exuberant cost of living is to increase the cost of living? Because that's what increasing the minimum wage will end up doing.So how do we magically make minimum wage people match the cost of living without raising their wages...make everything cheaper? How exactly do you propose we do that?
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:05:45 PMQuote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 04:03:36 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:53:27 PMQuote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 03:48:32 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:46:16 PMBut Charlie, don't you know that raising wages makes prices go up? That's a basic economic principle!But it kinda does?You can't artificially increase value. If costs go up you have to look for something down the pipeline which will inevitably compensate for that, whether it be a reduction in labour or price increases.Well when the cost of living naturally goes up X% per year, and you haven't gotten a raise in 4 years, your wage is worth less now than it was when you were hired. Either raise minimum wages to keep up with the cost of living, or ditch the minimum wage entirely and admit they don't give a fuck about people making minimum wage.So you're solution to the apparently exuberant cost of living is to increase the cost of living? Because that's what increasing the minimum wage will end up doing.So how do we magically make minimum wage people match the cost of living without raising their wages...make everything cheaper? How exactly do you propose we do that?Decrease corporation tax and deregulate sections of the private sector for starters, but you're probably better asking the economics guru of the forum because he can probably explain it much more eloquently than me.What I do know however, even from the most rudimentary grasp of economics is that raising the minimum wage does little, if anything in raising people from poverty or reducing the cost of living. Even just a penchant of common business sense can see why.
it would just increase their margins.
Quote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 04:09:40 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:05:45 PMQuote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 04:03:36 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:53:27 PMQuote from: Mordo on February 17, 2016, 03:48:32 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 03:46:16 PMBut Charlie, don't you know that raising wages makes prices go up? That's a basic economic principle!But it kinda does?You can't artificially increase value. If costs go up you have to look for something down the pipeline which will inevitably compensate for that, whether it be a reduction in labour or price increases.Well when the cost of living naturally goes up X% per year, and you haven't gotten a raise in 4 years, your wage is worth less now than it was when you were hired. Either raise minimum wages to keep up with the cost of living, or ditch the minimum wage entirely and admit they don't give a fuck about people making minimum wage.So you're solution to the apparently exuberant cost of living is to increase the cost of living? Because that's what increasing the minimum wage will end up doing.So how do we magically make minimum wage people match the cost of living without raising their wages...make everything cheaper? How exactly do you propose we do that?Decrease corporation tax and deregulate sections of the private sector for starters, but you're probably better asking the economics guru of the forum because he can probably explain it much more eloquently than me.What I do know however, even from the most rudimentary grasp of economics is that raising the minimum wage does little, if anything in raising people from poverty or reducing the cost of living. Even just a penchant of common business sense can see why.Decreasing corporate taxes wouldn't lower prices, it would just increase their margins.
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:12:32 PMit would just increase their margins.Not so, it would raise wages, investment and employment. Labour demand is highly elastic.
Quote from: Meta Cognition on February 17, 2016, 04:15:04 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:12:32 PMit would just increase their margins.Not so, it would raise wages, investment and employment. Labour demand is highly elastic.The kind of company who is paying minimum wages isn't interested in paying those people more. Minimum wage is code for "if I could legally pay you any less, I would"
The kind of company who is paying minimum wages isn't interested in paying those people more.
Minimum wage is code for "if I could legally pay you any less, I would"
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:20:18 PMQuote from: Meta Cognition on February 17, 2016, 04:15:04 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:12:32 PMit would just increase their margins.Not so, it would raise wages, investment and employment. Labour demand is highly elastic.The kind of company who is paying minimum wages isn't interested in paying those people more. Minimum wage is code for "if I could legally pay you any less, I would"Or maybe it's because the employee is working an unskilled job that anyone else could easily do, so their job is naturally less valuable?
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:20:18 PMThe kind of company who is paying minimum wages isn't interested in paying those people more.Pay is based on productivity, and has tracked it well for as long as we've had data on it. QuoteMinimum wage is code for "if I could legally pay you any less, I would"This would be true in a monopsonised labour market. There are three problems with this, though: There's not a lot of evidence for monopsony labour markets, but if they exist they're certainly in low-skilled labour markets. It doesn't necessarily follow that the minimum wage is an appropriate policy response; even if it is, the minimum wage certainly shouldn't be judged on some quality of life metric. That's not how markets respond to policy, and it will likely lead you down a bad road.In terms of poverty reduction specifically, minimum wages are actually pretty poor tools compared to government transfers.
just that their minimum wage should reflect the cost of living so they can..y'know...live.
what tools keep people with roofs their heads, food on their table, and clothes on their back?
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:25:21 PMjust that their minimum wage should reflect the cost of living so they can..y'know...live.But why do you view minimum wage policy as having this unrealistic goal to fill? We're talking about setting a price, and when you set a price you have to hit an equilibrium point. The point the minimum wage--if we have one--must target is the point at which welfare gains from higher income meets welfare losses from disemployment. And that equilibrium point could leave us with wages far below some contrived standard of living we want to shoot for.
Is that not the purpose of minimum wage - the minimum amount of money you need to live on?
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:34:59 PMIs that not the purpose of minimum wage - the minimum amount of money you need to live on?The purpose is whatever we define it as. I think, broadly, the minimum wage ought to be considered a single tool in our anti-poverty kit. What's the point of having a minimum wage if we're going to double it at the federal level and cause significant disemployment effects across the country? The minimum wage has a role to play when it comes to things like combating asymmetric labour markets--assuming they are a significant factor--and reducing churn in low-skilled markets, but there's nothing inherent to it which makes it the go-to anti-poverty policy.
At what rate is it acceptable to raise the minimum wage?
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:41:31 PMAt what rate is it acceptable to raise the minimum wage?The best work on an appropriate minimum wage policy has probably been conducted by Dube at UMass (note: Dube is on the Left politically).The conclusion is basically that if we're going to keep setting minimum wages at the federal level, it should probably be gradually raised to $10/hr.
Quote from: Meta Cognition on February 17, 2016, 04:47:55 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:41:31 PMAt what rate is it acceptable to raise the minimum wage?The best work on an appropriate minimum wage policy has probably been conducted by Dube at UMass (note: Dube is on the Left politically).The conclusion is basically that if we're going to keep setting minimum wages at the federal level, it should probably be gradually raised to $10/hr....which is still significantly higher than the $7.25 it has been at since 2009. Why is $10 acceptable but not $15. Would $10 not also result in the catastrophic unemployment of minimum wage workers, too?
Would $10 not also result in the catastrophic unemployment of minimum wage workers, too?
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:53:54 PMQuote from: Meta Cognition on February 17, 2016, 04:47:55 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 04:41:31 PMAt what rate is it acceptable to raise the minimum wage?The best work on an appropriate minimum wage policy has probably been conducted by Dube at UMass (note: Dube is on the Left politically).The conclusion is basically that if we're going to keep setting minimum wages at the federal level, it should probably be gradually raised to $10/hr....which is still significantly higher than the $7.25 it has been at since 2009. Why is $10 acceptable but not $15. Would $10 not also result in the catastrophic unemployment of minimum wage workers, too?No. That's the magic of GRADUAL increases.
But the rhetoric against raising the minimum wage is that ANY minimum wage increase is the end of the world.
Quote from: Mad Max on February 17, 2016, 05:07:37 PMBut the rhetoric against raising the minimum wage is that ANY minimum wage increase is the end of the world.And you have conservatives here telling you otherwise. Why are you opting to use the strawman/dumb argument over the argument that is being presented to you right now by conservatives who are probably more intelligent than the average Republican voter?
Wait... raising the minimum wage HELPED Washington?
