Verb was right

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 04:01:51 PM

I've always been on the fence about anti-natalism. My own Nietzschean existentialism led me to value life, and the continuation of culture, progress, science etc. to the point where I believed the suffering was worth it.

Today, a very good friend of mine was sectioned after having a psychotic break and making it thirty miles off campus before the police picked him up. I understand psychosis is manageable, but his aspirations and his dreams have effectively been shattered. And the pain it has inflicted on his family, his friends and I. . . Bringing a life into this world, and exposing them to possibilities like that. . .

No. It's not worth it.

DAS B00T x2 · March 24, 2016, 04:09:39 PM

I refuse to accept that anti-natalism will be how the white race disappears. I refuse it. We're better than just giving up.

Desty · March 24, 2016, 04:10:29 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T 2016 on March 24, 2016, 04:09:39 PM

I refuse to accept that anti-natalism will be how the white race disappears. I refuse it. We're better than just giving up.

Read the mood, will ya?

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 04:15:26 PM

Quote from: Desty on March 24, 2016, 04:10:29 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T 2016 on March 24, 2016, 04:09:39 PM
I refuse to accept that anti-natalism will be how the white race disappears. I refuse it. We're better than just giving up.
Read the mood, will ya?

I'm pretty much stuck in this shitty world, now.

Might as well laugh while I'm here.

Desty · March 24, 2016, 04:21:25 PM

Meta, you and your friend both grew up having acquired sensible dreams, but these dreams are most likely only possible because of the advancement of the human race. Through science and culture we've created leaders, parties, parlaments etc, and now the humans with a weak immune defense can take pills whenever they get sick, or they can get proper nutrition because of the somewhat effective globalisation.

Your friend has a fault, but a fault that can be fixed with the continuation of science advancing. You make your future, or you end it soon. If you do choose to make your future, you have the choice of wanting it to be a bright one, or a dim one.

You didn't believe in antinatalism because you valued life enough for some suffering to be worth it. Now you choose antinatalism because you think that the suffering is too much, but human beings have the potential to end suffering like the one your friend's situation has caused. You should follow your dream of improving the world to make a brighter future for your friend, or people in the same boat.

I'm assuming you want to be a politician that brings the human race forward.

Desty · March 24, 2016, 04:28:22 PM

Look, I'm all for antinatalism, but you're rooting for it for the wrong reason. Verbatim isn't right about this, because you actually value life. In fact, you make it sound like you have a passion for working hard to achieve your goals, and that's admirable. Go forward so that you can both achieve your goals, and end suffering by doing so.

Turkey · March 24, 2016, 04:29:26 PM

It's pretty fucked up of you to decide that someone else's life wasn't worth living.

Desty · March 24, 2016, 04:32:23 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 04:29:26 PM

It's pretty fucked up of you to decide that someone else's life wasn't worth living.

Most of us do that all the time.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 04:36:24 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 04:29:26 PM

It's pretty fucked up of you to decide that someone else's life wasn't worth living.

That's not my contention; of course his life is worth living, and I hope he has a life full of accomplishments and ultimately contentment. I would never advocate for anybody to commit suicide, and would do--and did--everything in my power to prevent my friend from doing specifically that while psychotic. But when I see the suffering all around the world, in both developed and developing countries, and then I see somebody very close to me suffer needlessly.

I'm not advocating homicide; I'm advocating not imposing the possibility (and likelihood) of significant suffering on a sentient being.

I'm also slightly irked by your hypocrisy, given your vocal support for Tsarnaev to get the chair.

Desty · March 24, 2016, 04:36:46 PM

I'm using logic against you, Meta, but I'm only doing that because you chose to use logic to direct your feelings into changing your life philosophy. The truth is that I believe that the problem lies in that you've experienced something emotional, but you don't have effective ways of dealing with it, so you turn to logic to express your angst towards the ufairness of life.

Edit:
I'm being ignored

brb killing self

Verbatim · March 24, 2016, 04:39:42 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 04:29:26 PM

It's pretty fucked up of you to decide that someone else's life wasn't worth living.

Could you point out precisely where he did that for me? Because I don't think he ever did that. I think you read the last part hastily and made silly assumptions, because you have some kind of petty gripe with this philosophy.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. That's not a great situation.

I find it interesting how, even though we may disagree on big things like economics, when it comes to philosophy, we always sort of saw eye-to-eye. Like, I know you've tried out the veganism thing before, and I realize that didn't work out--but it's people who have open minds like you that give me a reason to continue fighting for what I believe in.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 04:43:24 PM

Quote from: Desty on March 24, 2016, 04:36:46 PM

The truth is that I believe that the problem lies in that you've experienced something emotional, but you don't have effective ways of dealing with it, so you turn to logic to express your angst towards the ufairness of life.

I've been awake for around 35 hours now because I stayed up all night trying to talk to him, and to keep him from harming himself or anybody else. I did what was necessary, phoning first campus security and then his parents, constantly keeping an eye on him until another friend of ours went to the hospital. I know exactly what I'm feeling, and I'm managing to hold myself together for the sake of my friend and his family.

I'm dealing with this better than you imagine, I think. Even if my friend's suffering evoked no emotional response from me--which a year or two ago it probably wouldn't have--I would still maintain the dysutility of suffering as an experience. Most suffering in this world is dysteleological. Note, I'm not going to campaign against people having kids, mainly because I see it as a lost cause.

But, for me? No. I don't think I could bring a child into the world.

Desty · March 24, 2016, 04:49:09 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 24, 2016, 04:43:24 PM

Quote from: Desty on March 24, 2016, 04:36:46 PM
The truth is that I believe that the problem lies in that you've experienced something emotional, but you don't have effective ways of dealing with it, so you turn to logic to express your angst towards the ufairness of life.
I've been awake for around 35 hours now because I stayed up all night trying to talk to him, and to keep him from harming himself or anybody else. I did what was necessary, phoning first campus security and then his parents, constantly keeping an eye on him until another friend of ours went to the hospital. I know exactly what I'm feeling, and I'm managing to hold myself together for the sake of my friend and his family.

I'm dealing with this better than you imagine, I think.

Knowing what you're feeling and being able to hold yourself together isn't what I'd call dealing with something. You've described your dealing of the situation, but not about your feelings and how it has impacted you.

Turkey · March 24, 2016, 04:49:48 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 24, 2016, 04:36:24 PM

I'm advocating not imposing the possibility (and likelihood) of significant suffering on a sentient being.

Yeah, you're saying that you believe those lives aren't worth living because of suffering. You're removing their agency. It's fucked up. By supporting anti-natalism, you're deciding that nobody's life was worth living for them.

Quote

I'm also slightly irked by your hypocrisy, given your vocal support for Tsarnaev to get the chair.

It's not hypocrisy. I would never wish he hadn't been born. That's an infinitely more significant moral statement than seeing death as a fitting punishment for terrible crimes. I'm also pretty impartial to his punishment, and advocate the death penalty as a more humane alternative to imprisonment in isolation.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 04:50:46 PM

Quote from: Desty on March 24, 2016, 04:21:25 PM

You should follow your dream of improving the world to make a brighter future for your friend, or people in the same boat.

I'm assuming you want to be a politician that brings the human race forward.

I plan to.

Why are you equating a moral objection to the imposition of suffering on a person with a lack of desire to improve the world?

The only moral imperative we have in this life is ultimately to try and reduce suffering, if only in some small way. I wouldn't even call them dreams; if I were following my 'dreams' I would've gone into marine biology, or primatology or astrophysics. I study philosophy, politics and economics as a duty. I'll do it because it's the right thing to do, not because I believe this world is one worth experiencing.

Turkey · March 24, 2016, 04:53:17 PM

You're also in shock right now, which isn't a good time to make significant changes to your worldview.

Verbatim · March 24, 2016, 04:55:59 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 04:49:48 PM

Yeah, you're saying that you believe those lives aren't worth living because of suffering. You're removing their agency. It's fucked up. By supporting anti-natalism, you're deciding that nobody's life was worth living for them.

so by giving birth, you're deciding that the child's life is worth living for them--which would also be removing agency

wow, yeah, you've sure given this subject the amount of thought it deserves

Quote

I would never wish he hadn't been born. That's an infinitely more significant moral statement than seeing death as a fitting punishment for terrible crimes.

i like the puerile use of the word "infinitely," as though it makes you sound more right when you use it

you might as well just use the word "objectively," you philosophical neophyte

give the subject more than two seconds of thought and then come back to the thread

Turkey · March 24, 2016, 04:59:36 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on March 24, 2016, 04:55:59 PM

you might as well just use the word "objectively," you philosophical neophyte

Fuck off. His friend had a psychological breakdown and he's likely in shock and you're using it to push your nonsensical philosophy. Encouraging destructive behavior and radical changes in ideology during times like this is beyond reprehensible. This isn't even a discussion of the value of antinatalism.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 05:01:26 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 04:49:48 PM

By supporting anti-natalism, you're deciding that nobody's life was worth living for them.

And by not supporting it, you are equally imposing your own valuation on their life. How do we decide whose valuation is superior? We're both committing the same act of applying a value to other people's lives.

I'm not advocating for any coercive or violent measures here; I'm not even going to bother trying to convince people not to procreate. I just happen to think the evidence is tipped in my favour, in terms of whether or not the aggregate experience of humankind has been mostly negative or mostly positive.

We are allowed to try and draw objective conclusions from subjective facts. The absence of pleasure is not a bad state of affairs, given that non-existent people cannot experience any kind of deprivation. Not imposing suffering, however, is good precisely because it disallows any kind of negative experience.

Preventing negative experience = good.

A complete lack of (positive) experience = not 'bad'.

Quote

I would never wish he hadn't been born.

Why? Not only would he not have been able to murder innocent civilians, but we would also save some money by not having to pay for the cunts execution. If you think somebody better off dead, wishing they were never born seems more moral. The reduction in suffering that avenue opens up is significant.

Desty · March 24, 2016, 05:04:11 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 24, 2016, 04:50:46 PM

Quote from: Desty on March 24, 2016, 04:21:25 PM
You should follow your dream of improving the world to make a brighter future for your friend, or people in the same boat.

I'm assuming you want to be a politician that brings the human race forward.
I plan to.

Why are you equating a moral objection to the imposition of suffering on a person with a lack of desire to improve the world?

The only moral imperative we have in this life is ultimately to try and reduce suffering, if only in some small way. I wouldn't even call them dreams; if I were following my 'dreams' I would've gone into marine biology, or primatology or astrophysics. I study philosophy, politics and economics as a duty. I'll do it because it's the right thing to do, not because I believe this world is one worth experiencing.

Why? Because you made it sound like you'd lost hopes for the future, but if you only see your plans as a duty to pass time before you die, I've no complaints. That's basically my worldview, but I had the impression that you were passionate about life and the future.

Turkey · March 24, 2016, 05:06:16 PM

I and many others, including yourself, have had this discussion at length. Get some sleep, eat a meal, let's talk about it in a week.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 05:11:16 PM

Let me be clear.

I do not judge people who have children. How can I? It'd be like judging a lion for eating a gazelle. I'm not trying to tell others that they should feel they were better off never having been born. I'm not going to impose my own valuation of life on other people like that. My point is that, now, for me, the decision to not have children has a moral dimension. I don't feel that I can act in a way which is commensurate with my moral beliefs, while exposing a life to the potential of suffering in the same way I have in the past, the way my friend will in the near future, and the way his family inevitably will.

I, personally, do not think I could feel comfortable exposing a person to even the risk of that. It's a judgement call, and a decision I am trying to make really only for myself. If that wasn't clear, I apologise, but this is my point.

Verbatim · March 24, 2016, 05:11:28 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 04:59:36 PM

Fuck off. His friend had a psychological breakdown and he's likely in shock and you're using it to push your nonsensical philosophy. Encouraging destructive behavior and radical changes in ideology during times like this is beyond reprehensible. This isn't even a discussion of the value of antinatalism.

calm down, harlow

"radical changes in ideology," okay

maybe if you read the thread, or knew how to read at all, you would've noticed that meta mentioned being "on the fence" about the philosophy, and he has told me on a number of occasions that he has no arguments against it--he's always conceded that life is an imposition, so if he co-opts anti-natalism, that's far from a "radical" change in ideology

as for "encouraging destructive behavior," literally nobody is doing that

no one actually brought up anti-natalism into the discussion--you made a ridiculous accusation based on a shit interpretation of what he said, so i felt obliged to help defend it--especially because you did not hesitate to take a few potshots at my philosophy

but somehow, i'm using meta's turmoil to push my agenda

okay, silly person

keep pushing your unsolicited natalist agenda, you fucking hypocrite

Turkey · March 24, 2016, 05:19:32 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 24, 2016, 05:11:16 PM

Let me be clear.

I do not judge people who have children. How can I? It'd be like judging a lion for eating a gazelle. I'm not trying to tell others that they should feel they were better off never having been born. I'm not going to impose my own valuation of life on other people like that. My point is that, now, for me, the decision to not have children has a moral dimension. I don't feel that I can act in a way which is commensurate with my moral beliefs, while exposing a life to the potential of suffering in the same way I have in the past, the way my friend will in the near future, and the way his family inevitably will.

I, personally, do not think I could feel comfortable exposing a person to even the risk of that. It's a judgement call, and a decision I am trying to make really only for myself. If that wasn't clear, I apologise, but this is my point.

I'm on my phone right now so my replies are going to be brief, but I think someone like you would be a fantastic parent, even knowing that your kids will feel pain. I believe every parent should think long and hard about what kind of life they'd be giving their kids. If you've decided that what you couldn't give them is worth it, that's your choice, but I think everyone on this site would tell you otherwise.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 05:20:52 PM

And Turkey, I appreciate the compassion and the support. I really do. I consider you a good friend on this forum, and somebody who is perceptive and intelligent and enjoyable to talk to. But it's no secret I'm cynical, and I've made no attempts to hide my pessimism in the past.

This is hardly a U-turn for me. Merely an extension of what I already pretty much thought to be the case.

More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 05:28:04 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 05:19:32 PM

I'm on my phone right now so my replies are going to be brief, but I think someone like you would be a fantastic parent, even knowing that your kids will feel pain. I believe every parent should think long and hard about what kind of life they'd be giving their kids. If you've decided that what you couldn't give them is worth it, that's your choice, but I think everyone on this site would tell you otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, on some level I would love to have kids. If there's one things I adore about children its their curiosity, even if you can't hold a conversation with them as equals. There's something attractive about guiding a boy/girl into a man/woman and then letting them make their own lives.

But I've seen too much suffering in my own short life, among my family and inflicted on my friends to make me think it would be worth it for me to bring a child into the world. Today was the nail in the coffin really, and on a selfish level I couldn't put myself through it. Having to witness my grandma find out I was depressed, and just to think about how my friend's parents must feel right now to see their intelligent and perfectly respectable son turned into a paranoid mess. How much it must hurt them. I don't think I could endure that.

Turkey · March 24, 2016, 05:30:19 PM

Honestly I'm not concerned about your philosophy; obviously we disagree on several other things too. It's worrying to see you making any change; I'd be saying the same thing if you suddenly decided to convert to Christianity.

challengerX · March 24, 2016, 05:33:15 PM

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More Than Mortal · March 24, 2016, 05:36:23 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 05:30:19 PM

Honestly I'm not concerned about your philosophy; obviously we disagree on several other things too. It's worrying to see you making any change; I'd be saying the same thing if you suddenly decided to convert to Christianity.

Fair enough.

I know I need to sleep, I'm exhausted.

I'll return to thinking about this tomorrow and think about it more over the come weeks. Consider the level of conviction in this thread to be relatively low, at least for now.

Verbatim · March 24, 2016, 05:39:16 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on March 24, 2016, 05:19:32 PM

I'm on my phone right now so my replies are going to be brief, but I think someone like you would be a fantastic parent, even knowing that your kids will feel pain. I believe every parent should think long and hard about what kind of life they'd be giving their kids. If you've decided that what you couldn't give them is worth it, that's your choice, but I think everyone on this site would tell you otherwise.

Uh, wow, could you stop posting your natalist agenda in this thread? That is, like, SO inconsiderate and reprehensible of you.