Can someone help me understand God, sin, and Jesus' sacrifice?

R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
Accepting Christ as Savior is all you need. That's it.
But then God's love isn't unconditional. If you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, that's a condition to not get banished to the depths of hell for eternity.

God's unconditional love is demonstrated in the fact He gave you the opportunity for redemption, and also allows you to choose freely to accept or reject it. Sin isn't just sweeped under the rug, but He's given you all you need to free yourself from it.

It's all up to you.


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
The fact that Rocket doesn't get bothered by the troll attempts irks me for some reason.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.
it's shit like this that makes me think you're just suppressing your inner gay with a shell of homophobia

>shitposting in serious


rC | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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ayy lmao
The fact that Rocket doesn't get bothered by the troll attempts irks me for some reason.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.
it's shit like this that makes me think you're just suppressing your inner gay with a shell of homophobia

>shitposting in serious
you just did it too


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
The fact that Rocket doesn't get bothered by the troll attempts irks me for some reason.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.
it's shit like this that makes me think you're just suppressing your inner gay with a shell of homophobia

>shitposting in serious
you just did it too

Oh you caught that? Good eye.


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
-snip-
But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

It would seem that if you removed Jesus' death entirely, the end result would still be the same - having to answer for your sins on judgement day.
I'm guessing Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's love--his dying on the cross an expression of the lengths of said love.  All God wants in the end is for us to acknowledge this and accept it.

Assuming God is real.

Nailed it.

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."


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-snip-
But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

It would seem that if you removed Jesus' death entirely, the end result would still be the same - having to answer for your sins on judgement day.
I'm guessing Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's love--his dying on the cross an expression of the lengths of said love.  All God wants in the end is for us to acknowledge this and accept it.

Assuming God is real.

Nailed it.

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
But if Jesus' sacrifice didn't absolve us of our sins, what was the point in his sacrifice?


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Accepting Christ as Savior is all you need. That's it.
But then God's love isn't unconditional. If you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, that's a condition to not get banished to the depths of hell for eternity.

God's unconditional love is demonstrated in the fact He gave you the opportunity for redemption, and also allows you to choose freely to accept or reject it. Sin isn't just sweeped under the rug, but He's given you all you need to free yourself from it.

It's all up to you.

A choice between accepting and worshiping someone for really no other reason than to get into heaven or go to hell for all of eternity.

Doesn't seem like he's actually giving you much of a choice.


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I neither fear, nor despise.
-snip-
But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

It would seem that if you removed Jesus' death entirely, the end result would still be the same - having to answer for your sins on judgement day.
I'm guessing Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's love--his dying on the cross an expression of the lengths of said love.  All God wants in the end is for us to acknowledge this and accept it.

Assuming God is real.

Nailed it.

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
But if Jesus' sacrifice didn't absolve us of our sins, what was the point in his sacrifice?

It does, but only if you accept Christ as savior. It's a gift you have the choice of accepting or rejecting. then your sins are removed, but you aren't a perfect sinless being then. You need to walk with Christ, be made clean daily, pursue a relationship with Him. Because the more you fellowship like Christ, the more you become like Him.


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
Accepting Christ as Savior is all you need. That's it.
But then God's love isn't unconditional. If you need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, that's a condition to not get banished to the depths of hell for eternity.

God's unconditional love is demonstrated in the fact He gave you the opportunity for redemption, and also allows you to choose freely to accept or reject it. Sin isn't just sweeped under the rug, but He's given you all you need to free yourself from it.

It's all up to you.
Doesn't seem like he's actually giving you much of a choice.

Ah but you see, worshipping God only so you can get into Heaven? That won't work because of this verse here:

Quote
1 Corinthians 13

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

God wants you to worship Him because you love Him, not because you want to escape Hellfire.
And guess what? God would rather you be a non-believer than a lukewarm Christian.

Quote
Revelation 3:15-16

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

Think about that. God dislikes fake Christians more than non-believers. If dislike is even the proper word, I don't think it is. He wants us to be real with Him, not fakers who fulfill an image to get to Heaven.

Good works will not save you.
Christ alone can do that.
Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 10:43:54 PM by Val 'Ketam


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-snip-
But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

It would seem that if you removed Jesus' death entirely, the end result would still be the same - having to answer for your sins on judgement day.
I'm guessing Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's love--his dying on the cross an expression of the lengths of said love.  All God wants in the end is for us to acknowledge this and accept it.

Assuming God is real.

Nailed it.

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
But if Jesus' sacrifice didn't absolve us of our sins, what was the point in his sacrifice?

It does, but only if you accept Christ as savior. It's a gift you have the choice of accepting or rejecting. then your sins are removed, but you aren't a perfect sinless being then. You need to walk with Christ, be made clean daily, pursue a relationship with Him. Because the more you fellowship like Christ, the more you become like Him.
...and that's what we call a condition.


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
-snip-
But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

It would seem that if you removed Jesus' death entirely, the end result would still be the same - having to answer for your sins on judgement day.
I'm guessing Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's love--his dying on the cross an expression of the lengths of said love.  All God wants in the end is for us to acknowledge this and accept it.

Assuming God is real.

Nailed it.

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
But if Jesus' sacrifice didn't absolve us of our sins, what was the point in his sacrifice?

It does, but only if you accept Christ as savior. It's a gift you have the choice of accepting or rejecting. then your sins are removed, but you aren't a perfect sinless being then. You need to walk with Christ, be made clean daily, pursue a relationship with Him. Because the more you fellowship like Christ, the more you become like Him.
...and that's what we call a condition.

That's not a condition. The cleansing of sin was not automatically handed out. It is given to those who want it.
Not a condition, but a choice.

Is there a condition to get to Heaven? Yeah, accept a free gift.(which is hardly a condition at all since its so easy to acquire)
But God's love does not have a condition.
Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 11:58:22 PM by Val 'Ketam


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But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?
My philosophy teacher, who's a Christian, can't answer that.

So I've been waiting to ask Turkey >.>

This is a deep question that is difficult to answer in the medium of a forum. There's a lot of theology and exegesis that goes into responding well to this, and a degree of open-mindedness to not just balk at it and disregard it. The abbreviated version of it is seen clearly in many verses that the atonement of Christ is available to all and is intended for all, but the truth is that not all will take it. Even when confronted with overwhelming evidence in the form of dying and being confronted with it, as per Revelation, many will choose not to accept it. C.S. Lewis wrote a fantastic book about it called "The Great Divorce", and I'd recommend reading it, even if you're not into theology. It reads more like a story.

For specific essays and arguments on the ramifications of Jesus as a sacrifice, why it was necessary in the framework of the old and new covenants, and whether it applies to all with or without faith, here are two sources:

http://www.gotquestions.org/limited-atonement.html

https://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/did-jesus-die-everyone-my-calvinist-friends-say-no


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A flower which blooms on the battlefield
"Hey guys. If you don't want eternal damnation in Hell, that may or may not exist by the way, then you need to worship me. I'm not going to prove I exist but I expect you to blindly worship me anyway in the off chance that Heaven and Hell actually exist.
I still love all of you though, but if you don't worship me then your belong in Hell because I'm an egotistical shithead" - God


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I where do dinosaurs fit into this?


Because if I'm suppose to believe the bones and teeth of dinosaurs were recovered are actually fragments of a devil or some bullshit I'm done.


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-snip-
But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

It would seem that if you removed Jesus' death entirely, the end result would still be the same - having to answer for your sins on judgement day.
I'm guessing Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's love--his dying on the cross an expression of the lengths of said love.  All God wants in the end is for us to acknowledge this and accept it.

Assuming God is real.

Nailed it.

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
But if Jesus' sacrifice didn't absolve us of our sins, what was the point in his sacrifice?

It does, but only if you accept Christ as savior. It's a gift you have the choice of accepting or rejecting. then your sins are removed, but you aren't a perfect sinless being then. You need to walk with Christ, be made clean daily, pursue a relationship with Him. Because the more you fellowship like Christ, the more you become like Him.
...and that's what we call a condition.

That's not a condition. The cleansing of sin was not automatically handed out. It is given to those who want it.
Not a condition, but a choice.
Did Jesus only die for Christians, then? What about the rest of the sinners in the world?

Quote
Is there a condition to get to Heaven? Yeah, accept a free gift.(which is hardly a condition at all since its so easy to acquire)
But God's love does not have a condition.
So God loved everyone he drowned in the great flood? That's not something a loving person does...


Assassin 11D7 | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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"flaming nipple chops"-Your host, the man they call Ghost.

To say, 'nothing is true', is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say, 'everything is permitted', is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
Did Jesus only die for Christians, then? What about the rest of the sinners in the world?

Quote
Is there a condition to get to Heaven? Yeah, accept a free gift.(which is hardly a condition at all since its so easy to acquire)
But God's love does not have a condition.
So God loved everyone he drowned in the great flood? That's not something a loving person does...
Just gonna step in here on the off-chance of this not getting any sillier.

In case it has not been stated, Christian beliefs vary greatly depending on denomination, church, and upbringing. There are Christian churches that perform marriages under God between homosexual couples, but there are also Christian churches that proclaim the very state of being homosexual a sin and is of contempt. There are Christian churches that teach good works are enough to get into Heaven, while others teach that it is only through believing in Christ as God that can get you to Heaven. Then you even have the Mormons. Just keep in mind that there isn't one single answer, and that all of this varies a lot, so don't judge the entire religion of Christianity based on a single sect's views; it's far more complicated than that.

So, yes and no. Jesus both died for only those that choose to be actively worshiping Christians and every single Human being in the universe. It just depends on who you ask, iirc the Pope said Atheists can get into Heaven through good works.

Old Testament is difficult for most people to decipher and understand based on most of it being context from millennia ago. For the Great Flood, Humans were being supreme assholes(even more than usual), and so God basically had the choice of letting Humans fall so far into sin that they weren't salvageable or wiping out most of them and starting over.

Then again, a lot of the Old Testament is myth, and so it's mostly symbolic but some great flood probably happened at some point in history and this was the people's explanation and it also taught a moral lesson not to be shits so God doesn't need to kill people for their own good. Or something like that, like I said, it's complicated.


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I don't understand how God made everything, except he didn't if Sin exists.
That means that Satan can create things independantly, which means God didn't create everything and is no longer infallible.
And if he didn't see Satan creating things in his magical foresight, then he doesn't have omniscience
And omniscience is pretty much his main shtick.

"God sees everything etc etc"

EDIT: Used omnipotence when I should've said omniscience.
When God created the tree of forbidden knowledge in Eden he did create sin. He created the heavens and the earth. He created the angels and the humans and the creatures etc. He is omniscient and omnipotent. We can also create things independently too as people and so can Satan, thanks to God since He was the first to set everything in motion and allowed 6,000 years of human progress just so you could post this retarded shitty "argument" on the Internet. It's all part of His plan.


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"Hey guys. If you don't want eternal damnation in Hell, that may or may not exist by the way, then you need to worship me. I'm not going to prove I exist but I expect you to blindly worship me anyway in the off chance that Heaven and Hell actually exist.
I still love all of you though, but if you don't worship me then your belong in Hell because I'm an egotistical shithead" - God
That's where the whole concept of faith comes into play. The Christian religion dissolves without faith in God. Let me raise you a hypothetical, if God showed up right now in the present and started enforcing his commandments on everyone with full authority, there would be no room for faith. We would blindly follow his commandments without actually believing them or not, just to get into the promised kingdom. We would be complete slaves to him, with no way out of it that I could ever possibly imagine. God is just so darn nice so he says, "Darn, that would really suck for these people that I really really like. I'm going to be an invisible force and let them believe in me without me having to breathe down their necks in the limited time they have on this Earth and I will listen to the voices of the real kingdom and heed their pleas. So let me just remind them to follow my commandments through miracles and faith in me to give them what rightfully belongs to the righteous."


Kleenex | Respected Posting Riot
 
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It was a way to atone for sins. And shepherds would sacrifice the single best lamb of their livestock. Not the worst, the sick. That was out of gratitude for God giving them livestock at all.
So God, the guy you pray to, thinks its reasonable to have stone age shepherds slaughter their most valuable economic in a show of devotion despite the fact that he--being omniscient--could deduce that anyway if he wanted to?
Israel was literally bathing in sheep and gold during those days fuck off.


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It's my personal belief that Jesus' death absolved humanity for its sins.  Until judgment day everyone goes to purgatory (a waiting room).  On judgment day everyone is given an account of their sins, and can choose to either seek forgiveness (accepting God as the one true god and Jesus as His son) or deny God's will.  The former will go to Heaven, the latter to Hell.  That's the only way I see that works with scripture and explains whether or not an isolated tribesman in the Amazon who has never heard of God still gets a chance.

Assuming God is real, of course.

I don't get that. Jesus died for us so we could wait in a room. Then one day God will come into that room and judge us. And then some (most probably) go to Hell anyways? What the fuck is up with God? M. Night Shyamalan could write a better fucking "plan" than that. What a fucking dick.


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Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin.
That isn't perfect, then.

Quote
Before the Cross, we didn't have a chance at Salvation.
So all of the humans 188,000 years before the life of Christ are in Hell?

Fuck, what about the archaic humans like Homo sapiens idaltu and the Neanderthals, where are they?


Actually, I made a mistake there.

People back then did have a chance at Salvation, like in Old Testament times. Basically, as my comment to Barracuda stated, Israel would give an annual "sin offering".

So those who lived righteous lives, like Noah and Moses, they aren't in Hell. They went to a place called "Abraham's bosom". It wasn't Heaven, but it wasn't Hell either. Nor was it Purgatory.

So the righteous weren't condemned, but Salvation wasn't as acquirable as it is through Christ.

But Abraham didn't found the religion until  around 2500 B.C.E. So you're telling me all the Human species before that are just burning in hell? I'm sorry, but your God is a fucking dick.
Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 09:25:27 AM by Tackelberry


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Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin.
That isn't perfect, then.

Quote
Before the Cross, we didn't have a chance at Salvation.
So all of the humans 188,000 years before the life of Christ are in Hell?

Fuck, what about the archaic humans like Homo sapiens idaltu and the Neanderthals, where are they?


Actually, I made a mistake there.

People back then did have a chance at Salvation, like in Old Testament times. Basically, as my comment to Barracuda stated, Israel would give an annual "sin offering".

So those who lived righteous lives, like Noah and Moses, they aren't in Hell. They went to a place called "Abraham's bosom". It wasn't Heaven, but it wasn't Hell either. Nor was it Purgatory.

So the righteous weren't condemned, but Salvation wasn't as acquirable as it is through Christ.

But Abraham didn't found the religion until  around 2500 B.C.E. So you're telling me all the Human species before that are just burning in hell? I'm sorry, but your God is a fucking dick.
Stop "trolling" and read Acts 17:31 moron.


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Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin.
That isn't perfect, then.

Quote
Before the Cross, we didn't have a chance at Salvation.
So all of the humans 188,000 years before the life of Christ are in Hell?

Fuck, what about the archaic humans like Homo sapiens idaltu and the Neanderthals, where are they?


Actually, I made a mistake there.

People back then did have a chance at Salvation, like in Old Testament times. Basically, as my comment to Barracuda stated, Israel would give an annual "sin offering".

So those who lived righteous lives, like Noah and Moses, they aren't in Hell. They went to a place called "Abraham's bosom". It wasn't Heaven, but it wasn't Hell either. Nor was it Purgatory.

So the righteous weren't condemned, but Salvation wasn't as acquirable as it is through Christ.

But Abraham didn't found the religion until  around 2500 B.C.E. So you're telling me all the Human species before that are just burning in hell? I'm sorry, but your God is a fucking dick.
Stop "trolling" and read Acts 17:31 moron.

God causes a zombie apocalypse. THANKS GOD.