The Fall of Lucifer

More Than Mortal · January 07, 2015, 11:35:10 AM

Quote

Well I don't have some grand showstopper of a post, I just thought this might be interesting to continue, in a more serious tone.

I get that a lot of you see all religion as fairy tales, but there's no reason not to have a good talk about what those tales mean, how they affect us, and whether there's any value in them.

As usual, I'm not here to convert anyone, but if you're going to criticize a religion, at least make sure you've got some of the basic premises down.

Maybe nobody will reply and this thread will be dead by tonight. If not, that's great. The Facebook joke above is a good starting point, since the tree the knowledge of good and evil is an interesting topic.

Yes, we are continuing this discussion here since Kiyo doesn't want her thread to continue. This was Turkey's last post on the topic (I'm still waiting for my explanation of bodily resurrection, by the way), and I'm sure it will engender some interesting discussion.

So, we all pretty much know the story about Adam and Eve and Satan and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. What's your take on it?

Super Irish · January 07, 2015, 11:47:48 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 07, 2015, 11:35:10 AM

What's your take on it?

That it's just a story to explain something we couldn't at the time.

I'm not going to ridicule it, it's not like we knew anything at all about how the Earth or anything really came to be before the 19th century. It was just that religion was the most intelligent institution at the time and that's what they came up with to explain our existence.

A "science before science", if you will.

Mr. Psychologist · January 07, 2015, 12:30:07 PM

The adam and eve story, to me, looks more like an allegory than anything else <.<

You could take the cynical view of it being used to cover the asses of people claiming god loves us all, which isn't really one I think is all that true. Or a different one of people trying to explain why there is evil/sin in the world. Then I'm not sure how original sin factors into all denominations because I think that's mostly a catholic thing.
My biggest gripe with the line of thinking that redemption is simply granted through absolution/belief is that it doesn't do a whole lot of atonement for those sins. Saying Hail Mary 3 times and 3 Our Fathers in a confessional after you killed someone doesn't really make up for what you did imo (Hyperbole)
I'm sure there is a sect/denomination that sticks to the more palatable (to me) line of thinking that if you do something bad, you have to do something equally or more good to repent. You steal an apple one day, you give them two back the next and apologise. Something like that <.<

Statefarm · January 07, 2015, 12:58:50 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on January 07, 2015, 12:30:07 PM

The adam and eve story, to me, looks more like an allegory than anything else <.<

You could take the cynical view of it being used to cover the asses of people claiming god loves us all, which isn't really one I think is all that true. Or a different one of people trying to explain why there is evil/sin in the world. Then I'm not sure how original sin factors into all denominations because I think that's mostly a catholic thing.
My biggest gripe with the line of thinking that redemption is simply granted through absolution/belief is that it doesn't do a whole lot of atonement for those sins. Saying Hail Mary 3 times and 3 Our Fathers in a confessional after you killed someone doesn't really make up for what you did imo (Hyperbole)
I'm sure there is a sect/denomination that sticks to the more palatable (to me) line of thinking that if you do something bad, you have to do something equally or more good to repent. You steal an apple one day, you give them two back the next and apologise. Something like that <.<

You have to be completely honest for atonement to work. Saying prayers isn't what gives you the forgiveness. You have to mean it, search your soul for complete forgiveness. Also you have to do everything you can to right the wrong. So you can't steal something and then not give it back. If you kill someone you confess, turn yourself in, and live the rest of your life in selflessness; serve god the best way you can. You will only know if you did enough once you are judged after death. At least that's what religious education taught me.

Mr. Psychologist · January 07, 2015, 12:59:31 PM

Quote from: Statefarm on January 07, 2015, 12:58:50 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on January 07, 2015, 12:30:07 PM
The adam and eve story, to me, looks more like an allegory than anything else <.<

You could take the cynical view of it being used to cover the asses of people claiming god loves us all, which isn't really one I think is all that true. Or a different one of people trying to explain why there is evil/sin in the world. Then I'm not sure how original sin factors into all denominations because I think that's mostly a catholic thing.
My biggest gripe with the line of thinking that redemption is simply granted through absolution/belief is that it doesn't do a whole lot of atonement for those sins. Saying Hail Mary 3 times and 3 Our Fathers in a confessional after you killed someone doesn't really make up for what you did imo (Hyperbole)
I'm sure there is a sect/denomination that sticks to the more palatable (to me) line of thinking that if you do something bad, you have to do something equally or more good to repent. You steal an apple one day, you give them two back the next and apologise. Something like that <.<

You have to be completely honest for atonement to work. Saying prayers isn't what gives you the forgiveness. You have to mean it, search your soul for complete forgiveness. Also you have to do everything you can to right the wrong. So you can't steal something and then not give it back. If you kill someone you confess, turn yourself in, and live the rest of your life in selflessness; serve god the best way you can. You will only know if you did enough once you are judged after death. At least that's what religious education taught me.

Ahh well that does make a little more sense <.<

Mad Max · January 07, 2015, 01:45:28 PM

Why does this thread keep getting locked and unlocked?

More Than Mortal · January 07, 2015, 01:46:42 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on January 07, 2015, 01:45:28 PM

Why does this thread keep getting locked and unlocked?

Take a closer look at my OP, Max, and then at the Serious feed.

Mad Max · January 07, 2015, 01:49:07 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 07, 2015, 01:46:42 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on January 07, 2015, 01:45:28 PM
Why does this thread keep getting locked and unlocked?
Take a closer look at my OP, Max, and then at the Serious feed.

...nevermind.

Jocephalopod · January 07, 2015, 03:33:06 PM

it's almost a metaphor for evolution, which is pretty contradictory depending on how you look at the bible

Turkey · January 07, 2015, 04:37:04 PM

I'll be home tomorrow, then I can respond to your other question and have some more info for this one.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 07, 2015, 04:40:40 PM

The Bible is a book of allegories, as is the Torah and the Qur'an. The problem comes about when a person reads the events literally, or claims such to further a purpose.

maverick · January 07, 2015, 05:38:12 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 07, 2015, 11:35:10 AM

I'm still waiting for my explanation of bodily resurrection, by the way

Jesus died on the cross but was impersonated days later which is why some people didn't recognize him at first.

Korra · January 07, 2015, 11:50:04 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 07, 2015, 11:35:10 AM

Quote
Well I don't have some grand showstopper of a post, I just thought this might be interesting to continue, in a more serious tone.

I get that a lot of you see all religion as fairy tales, but there's no reason not to have a good talk about what those tales mean, how they affect us, and whether there's any value in them.

As usual, I'm not here to convert anyone, but if you're going to criticize a religion, at least make sure you've got some of the basic premises down.

Maybe nobody will reply and this thread will be dead by tonight. If not, that's great. The Facebook joke above is a good starting point, since the tree the knowledge of good and evil is an interesting topic.

Yes, we are continuing this discussion here since Kiyo doesn't want her thread to continue. This was Turkey's last post on the topic (I'm still waiting for my explanation of bodily resurrection, by the way), and I'm sure it will engender some interesting discussion.

So, we all pretty much know the story about Adam and Eve and Satan and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. What's your take on it?

The Snake sounds like the good guy and God sounds like an asshole. But that's how things mostly go in the Old Testament.

Assassin 11D7 · January 08, 2015, 03:22:59 PM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on January 07, 2015, 11:50:04 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 07, 2015, 11:35:10 AM
Quote
Well I don't have some grand showstopper of a post, I just thought this might be interesting to continue, in a more serious tone.

I get that a lot of you see all religion as fairy tales, but there's no reason not to have a good talk about what those tales mean, how they affect us, and whether there's any value in them.

As usual, I'm not here to convert anyone, but if you're going to criticize a religion, at least make sure you've got some of the basic premises down.

Maybe nobody will reply and this thread will be dead by tonight. If not, that's great. The Facebook joke above is a good starting point, since the tree the knowledge of good and evil is an interesting topic.

Yes, we are continuing this discussion here since Kiyo doesn't want her thread to continue. This was Turkey's last post on the topic (I'm still waiting for my explanation of bodily resurrection, by the way), and I'm sure it will engender some interesting discussion.

So, we all pretty much know the story about Adam and Eve and Satan and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. What's your take on it?
The Snake sounds like the good guy and God sounds like an asshole. But that's how things mostly go in the Old Testament.

How is the snake not more of an asshole for tempting Adam and Eve to do the one thing God asked they not do?

Magos Domina · January 08, 2015, 04:08:58 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on January 08, 2015, 03:22:59 PM

Quote from: Korra Valentine on January 07, 2015, 11:50:04 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 07, 2015, 11:35:10 AM
Quote
Well I don't have some grand showstopper of a post, I just thought this might be interesting to continue, in a more serious tone.

I get that a lot of you see all religion as fairy tales, but there's no reason not to have a good talk about what those tales mean, how they affect us, and whether there's any value in them.

As usual, I'm not here to convert anyone, but if you're going to criticize a religion, at least make sure you've got some of the basic premises down.

Maybe nobody will reply and this thread will be dead by tonight. If not, that's great. The Facebook joke above is a good starting point, since the tree the knowledge of good and evil is an interesting topic.

Yes, we are continuing this discussion here since Kiyo doesn't want her thread to continue. This was Turkey's last post on the topic (I'm still waiting for my explanation of bodily resurrection, by the way), and I'm sure it will engender some interesting discussion.

So, we all pretty much know the story about Adam and Eve and Satan and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. What's your take on it?
The Snake sounds like the good guy and God sounds like an asshole. But that's how things mostly go in the Old Testament.
How is the snake not more of an asshole for tempting Adam and Eve to do the one thing God asked they not do?

God wants control, Lucifer gave man freedom

Assassin 11D7 · January 08, 2015, 05:24:43 PM

Quote from: Kiyohime on January 08, 2015, 04:08:58 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on January 08, 2015, 03:22:59 PM
Quote from: Korra Valentine on January 07, 2015, 11:50:04 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 07, 2015, 11:35:10 AM
Quote
Well I don't have some grand showstopper of a post, I just thought this might be interesting to continue, in a more serious tone.

I get that a lot of you see all religion as fairy tales, but there's no reason not to have a good talk about what those tales mean, how they affect us, and whether there's any value in them.

As usual, I'm not here to convert anyone, but if you're going to criticize a religion, at least make sure you've got some of the basic premises down.

Maybe nobody will reply and this thread will be dead by tonight. If not, that's great. The Facebook joke above is a good starting point, since the tree the knowledge of good and evil is an interesting topic.

Yes, we are continuing this discussion here since Kiyo doesn't want her thread to continue. This was Turkey's last post on the topic (I'm still waiting for my explanation of bodily resurrection, by the way), and I'm sure it will engender some interesting discussion.

So, we all pretty much know the story about Adam and Eve and Satan and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. What's your take on it?
The Snake sounds like the good guy and God sounds like an asshole. But that's how things mostly go in the Old Testament.
How is the snake not more of an asshole for tempting Adam and Eve to do the one thing God asked they not do?
God wants control, Lucifer gave man freedom

But God already gave man freedom, as he allowed Adam and Eve to choose.