I'm sure Meta is going to bring out some autistic economic policy or historical fact that is somehow going to debunk what I said

Only where you blame the middle east's failings on imperialism.

Quote from: Sandtrap on January 16, 2015, 07:38:53 AM

. . .

I'm not sure what your evaluation of capitalism has to do with it.

Capitalism is consumption based at it's core. Consume more, spend more, earn more. This leads to just about everything in today's world being based around consumption. It's unhealthy. People spend their lives working in shitty jobs to make money. What do they do with it? Part of it goes for all the taxes and costs under the sun. Part of it goes towards paying for neccessities. And what little you have left is spent on things you'd like.

And you never have enough to get all the stuff you want. So a lot of people get trapped in mortgages and credit. And then they get stuck in the yearly cycle of new rehashed shit with a few extra bits thrown on to make it different. And in order to pay off all that stuff on credit?

You work more.

And not only is everything based around consumption, it's based around poor quality. Products are released that are cheaply made. They're designed to break. And they break. In a capitalist society, what do you do with something that breaks? You throw it away. Buy another one because you can because it's easier to go out and buy it brand new then repair it yourself or god forbid make something of actual quality yourself.

Part of the problem with today's society is capitalism. It's a big problem actually.

Capitalism is consumption based at it's core. Consume more, spend more, earn more. This leads to just about everything in today's world being based around consumption. It's unhealthy. People spend their lives working in shitty jobs to make money. What do they do with it? Part of it goes for all the taxes and costs under the sun. Part of it goes towards paying for neccessities. And what little you have left is spent on things you'd like.

And you never have enough to get all the stuff you want. So a lot of people get trapped in mortgages and credit. And then they get stuck in the yearly cycle of new rehashed shit with a few extra bits thrown on to make it different. And in order to pay off all that stuff on credit?

You work more.

And not only is everything based around consumption, it's based around poor quality. Products are released that are cheaply made. They're designed to break. And they break. In a capitalist society, what do you do with something that breaks? You throw it away. Buy another one because you can because it's easier to go out and buy it brand new then repair it yourself or god forbid make something of actual quality yourself.

Part of the problem with today's society is capitalism. It's a big problem actually.

I don't see how capitalism--the system which has caused 1pc of human history to have 99pc of the wealth, and facilitated a massive increase in leisure time--can be considered part of the problem even under your own paradigm. Capitalism isn't some sort of culture which has been imposed on us, it's merely a process of supplying demand. Is an excessive consumer culture good? No, of course not, but the problem is the demand on the part of the consumers not the capitalists responding to those demands.

You'll never, ever get rid of a consumption-based economy. The best you'll do is remove the need for labour.

Quote from: Sandtrap on January 16, 2015, 11:29:49 AM

Capitalism is consumption based at it's core. Consume more, spend more, earn more. This leads to just about everything in today's world being based around consumption. It's unhealthy. People spend their lives working in shitty jobs to make money. What do they do with it? Part of it goes for all the taxes and costs under the sun. Part of it goes towards paying for neccessities. And what little you have left is spent on things you'd like.

And you never have enough to get all the stuff you want. So a lot of people get trapped in mortgages and credit. And then they get stuck in the yearly cycle of new rehashed shit with a few extra bits thrown on to make it different. And in order to pay off all that stuff on credit?

You work more.

And not only is everything based around consumption, it's based around poor quality. Products are released that are cheaply made. They're designed to break. And they break. In a capitalist society, what do you do with something that breaks? You throw it away. Buy another one because you can because it's easier to go out and buy it brand new then repair it yourself or god forbid make something of actual quality yourself.

Part of the problem with today's society is capitalism. It's a big problem actually.

I don't see how capitalism--the system which has caused 1pc of human history to have 99pc of the wealth, and facilitated a massive increase in leisure time--can be considered part of the problem even under your own paradigm. Capitalism isn't some sort of culture which has been imposed on us, it's merely a process of supplying demand. Is an excessive consumer culture good? No, of course not, but the problem is the demand on the part of the consumers not the capitalists responding to those demands.

You'll never, ever get rid of a consumption-based economy. The best you'll do is remove the need for labour.

I know it wasn't a culture that was forced. Supply and demand will always be around. But it's a vicious circle at this rate. And the capitalists don't give a shit. They find every way to wring every single penny out of whatever they can.

But the point I'm trying to make here is, a capitalist system does not care. It does not care for the environment, it does not care about resources, it does not care about a sick society. It only exists to make money. That's it. And if you stand in the way of that you are either ignored or you get passively and slowly taken over if you're an opposing country.

And that's the problem. Capitalism has no direction. It has no focus. It just exists to make money. And it makes money through whatever means neccessary no matter how dirty it is.

Take a look at medicine. Have you ever actually taken a look at the amount of fucking side effects some of the shit has that they give you? They list fucking death as a side effect for some shit. I know we're a complex bundle of chemical reactions of those sorts, but don't you think with a little more focus the docs responsible for creating the drugs we take could be a little more fined tuned than,

"Oh don't worry, death or severe organ failure is just a side effect."

No. You know why? Because that makes money. You go to the doc when you're sick. He gives you a prescription. You head over to your local pharmacy, and pick up your drugs and start taking them.

Let's just say for example that 1 out of every 5 people experiences the side effects listed on that bottle. What happens? You go back to the doc, and he works out another prescription for you and takes you off the old one. You go back to the pharmacy. And you buy another round of new drugs, with their own side effects.

Right there, you've just paid for another round of drugs for a sick person. Instead of having five sick people pay for a round of drugs, six people just paid. And when you multiply that onto a nation of people who are obese with heart problems, lung problems, muscle problems, and every fucking health problem under the sun, there's sure as hell of a lot more than 1 out of 5 people experiencing side effects and recieving counter drugs or replacement prescriptions.

That right there? ^^^^ That's what a capitalist does. Anything neccessary to boost profits. Society became sick as capitalism rose in the ranks and the people up top gladly supplied all the fancy stuff that was demanded. They fed off that diseased and broken society and not only grew in strength but they gained control. So now science and development isn't so much led for the sake of progress.

It's led for the sake of money. Like I said, it's a vicous circle. So long as society remains fucked, then capitalism will feed that state because it exists for no other purpose than to consume and multiply. And so long as that continues to happen, then the current state capitalism exists in will continue to be a detriment that's lived long past it's usefullness.

In the end however, it doesn't really matter. It's too big of a system to change, or even fight. So I make a compromise.

I live one foot in the older way of doing things, and one foot in the current age so I don't fall behind. And in this way I'm secure. I am completely secure. I have my nice commodities. But I do things for myself and I am not trapped. Best way to go about doing things to be honest. And it's a shame that people don't realize that there's something beyond the rigged system they currently participate in.

Quote from: Sandtrap on January 16, 2015, 12:19:21 PM

And the capitalists don't give a shit.

Because nobody else does, that's the point.

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a capitalist system does not care.

That's not true, it cares exactly how much the society cares.

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it does not care about resources, it does not care about a sick society. It only exists to make money.

Except wisely using resources and increasing quality of life are two of the biggest justifications for capitalism; it's pretty much the entire reason Hume was a liberal. The entire point of capitalism is that responsible management of your assets preserves natural resources as well as engenders profit. Have you ever seen people organised in such a way by anything other than a profit motive? The only example I know of is the Free Territory in Ukraine, and even then it was only due to outside threats from Bolshevism.

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Capitalism has no direction. It has no focus.

Again, it has exactly the amount of direction and focus as the society in which it is being used. You can't really look at America and a third-world country and say the first has an equal lack of direction and focus in comparison to the latter; the problem with the latter is almost always that there is never enough capitalists populating the economy. Even if I think we agree that the West (and the entire world, I suppose) is in a state of moral or cultural decadence, I think it's incredibly lazy to look at a complex system like capitalism and place the blame there.

Fuck, most of the problems with capitalism aren't a result of capitalism.

Righto then so it all comes down to people being stupid all around. Joy.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 16, 2015, 09:56:12 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on January 16, 2015, 05:53:19 AM

I'm sure Meta is going to bring out some autistic economic policy or historical fact that is somehow going to debunk what I said

Only where you blame the middle east's failings on imperialism.

I was more referring to Africa.

Even then.

Some parts of Africa didn't even have the wheel until the 1800s.

Yeah, the fuck up is called sentience.

Quote from: SuperIrish on January 16, 2015, 11:59:25 AM

A good ol' Fight Club quote does this justice

YouTube

While I enjoy living in the country more than the urban landscape (well, more "urban", seeing as Wales' capital ain't huge compared to most places in the world), I do enjoy some of the things of advancement at the expense of culture and to an extent, freedom.

I fucking love McDonalds. I love the internet. I LOVE bacon. I adore central heating, and music that I cannot create myself. As much as I'd love to create these things to suite a more "free" lifestyle, or be totally independent from such pleasures, I cannot. So be it.

I'm not talking about the cliche "city vs country" bullshit. I'm saying, why is everything so complicated and meaningless? We make shit complicated for no reason.

I think you missed the point, I wasn't even trying to make it a battle.

I didn't even know there's a cliche for that.

Quote from: SuperIrish on January 17, 2015, 03:14:45 PM

Quote from: challengerX on January 17, 2015, 03:02:49 PM

Quote from: SuperIrish on January 16, 2015, 11:59:25 AM

A good ol' Fight Club quote does this justice

YouTube

While I enjoy living in the country more than the urban landscape (well, more "urban", seeing as Wales' capital ain't huge compared to most places in the world), I do enjoy some of the things of advancement at the expense of culture and to an extent, freedom.

I fucking love McDonalds. I love the internet. I LOVE bacon. I adore central heating, and music that I cannot create myself. As much as I'd love to create these things to suite a more "free" lifestyle, or be totally independent from such pleasures, I cannot. So be it.

I'm not talking about the cliche "city vs country" bullshit. I'm saying, why is everything so complicated and meaningless? We make shit complicated for no reason.

I think you missed the point, I wasn't even trying to make it a battle.

I didn't even know there's a cliche for that.

I'm not trying to be hostile at all. Sorry if came off like that.

I'm not against technology I'm saying. I'm for changing cities and making them more natural but still being technologically advanced. Not wasting time doing random bullshit that isn't taking our species anywhere. Get what I mean?

'S ok man, no damage dealt