So I was on the Green Party website

 
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This was under "Grassroots Democracy":
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Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

What the fuck? Why not just leave them alone in the first place.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
 
I don't see the problem.
It'll just make the political system more convoluted and confusing. Direct democracy doesn't really work in large institutions - even something as small as a borough or district.

I don't see why people have to involve themselves in a system which needn't be so inclusive. Let citizens have their say, sure, let them vote, of course. But fuck, don't expand the government that much, just let people live their lives.

The way I think about it is that the best person to represent you is you. If you leave it that way you don't need representatives to be fully accountable in the first place.

There isn't anything wrong at first glace - I fully agree with the first statement - it just has the potential to allow the State to become even more bloated.
Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 07:50:58 AM by Meta Cognition


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The way I think about it is that the best person to represent you is you. If you leave it that way you don't need representatives to be fully accountable in the first place.
This is how naive libertarians actually are.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
This is how naive libertarians actually are.
I've said on many occasions I'm not a straight-up liberty-or-death libertarian.

The point is that the more you transfer powers and abilities into government structures, the more you will need representatives to be accountable and the more convoluted it'll be. All I'm advocating is divorcing the political structure from the social one, and just allowing people to get the fuck on with their lives.

Considering you anti-Statist persuasions, I'm sure you can at least concede to that.

Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 08:38:47 AM by Meta Cognition


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If I'm not here, I'm doing photography. Or I'm asleep. Or in lockdown. One of those three, anyway.

The current titlebar/avatar setup is just normal.
That would make it harder for anything to pass.


While that is great for retarded proposed policies, it also means that it take longer for good policies as it now means 300 more people have to check through it (just a simple example).


I'd agree that the whole governmental process is made more transparent so that obvious flaws in the system can be criticized and corrected, but adding as many people as possible to the system just makes it long-winded, and generally worse (would you rather an elected professional, or several geriatrics and a few young 'uns arguing over every possible detail but with no real knowledge on the department/sector?).
Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 08:45:18 AM by SuperIrish


 
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I've said on many occasions I'm not a straight-up liberty-or-death libertarian.

The point is that the more you transfer powers and abilities into government structures, the more you will need representatives to be accountable and the more convoluted it'll be. All I'm advocating is divorcing the political structure from the social one, and just allowing people to get the fuck on with their lives.

Considering you anti-Statist persuasions, I'm sure you can at least concede to that.


I'm not sure how you're making the jump from more accountability from elected representatives to transferring power to government structures.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
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we will work to increase public participation at every level of government

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which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process


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I'm getting a feel that it's an oxymoron of sorts

Politicians represent themselves first and the public 2nd. If there's no incentive for them on a piece of legislation then they are not going to support it


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Still not seeing how that translates to more state power.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Still not seeing how that translates to more state power.
You don't see how giving the State more points-of-access and making it more inclusive will make growth easier?

Seriously?


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No, because under this system citizens would have a say in how things are run, as opposed to being dependent on the whims of an insular ruling class.

That equals less power for the state, not more.


 
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No, because under this system citizens would have a say in how things are run, as opposed to being dependent on the whims of an insular ruling class.

That equals less power for the state, not more.
I see what you mean but I still disagree.

It's counter-intuitive, but part of the problem today with having this "ruling class" is the fact that the government is bloated and there are so many points-of-access. Extending such an advantage to the citizenry at large might seem remedial, but it'll only serve to confuse the whole thing.

I'm not saying the people shouldn't have a say in how things are run, I'm saying exactly what is and the way in which the government operates should be contracted.


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the government is bloated and there are so many points-of-access.
For the rich, yes. For everyone else the problem is too few points of access.

I suppose you could make the argument that rich people will end up controlling the system regardless, but the obvious solution to that problem would be to do away with capitalism.
Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:31:19 AM by Dave


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
For the rich, yes. For everyone else the problem is too few points of access.

I suppose you could make the argument that rich people will end up controlling the system regardless, but the obvious solution to that problem would be to do away with capitalism.
The problem is Statism, not the market >.>

You want to sort the problem out? Hang the bureaucrats who give out corporate welfare.


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Even without corporate welfare, you would still have to take into account the existence of lobbying, campaign donations, and privately-owned mass media.

So long as all of those institutions remain in place, elections will always be rigged to the advantage of the corporate plutocracy.

Edit: Also, inheritance.
Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:45:03 AM by Dave


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Even without corporate welfare, you would still have to take into account lobbying, campaign donations, and privately-owned mass media.

So long as all of those institutions remain in place, elections will always be rigged to the advantage of the corporate plutocracy.
Getting rid of corporate welfare would eliminate most, if not all, of the incentives to lobby or donate. As for the media? Oh well, first amendment. There's a broad range of information available from a number of sources, if you don't like it then you're perfectly free to look elsewhere for information.

Inheritance tax should be abolished; it hurts the middle-class the most. Countries like Sweden have done fine without it.

I should probably point out that, actually, pro rata the rich work harder than the poor.
Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:46:33 AM by Meta Cognition


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So long as all of those institutions remain in place, elections will always be rigged to the advantage of the corporate plutocracy.
^see above

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Getting rid of corporate welfare would eliminate most, if not all, of the incentives to lobby or donate
Not really, corporations will always have incentive to support politicians that are in favour of legislation that benefits them.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Not really, corporations will always have incentive to support politicians that are in favour of legislation that benefits them.
Well yeah, that's exactly what corporate welfare is.


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but the obvious solution to that problem would be to do away with capitalism.
And replace it with what? Socialism? Communism? First off human nature is to be greedy, just look at the nations that called themselves Communist (Cuba, China, Vietnam, North Korea, Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc nations, etc) they all fell victim to a few elite taking control of the nation and wealth and treating the people like shit but utilized brainwashing to make them think they were living a good life. Not only was life terrible under these systems but goods and services were shit also as there were no companies competing to drive innovation, quality improvement, cheap prices, etc. Because human nature is to want things (being greedy) it's the very reason why capitalism, and capitalistic-like systems, have always flourished, it allows everybody to want instead of a small few who then turn to controlling the masses


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As for the media? Oh well, first amendment. There's a broad range of information available from a number of sources, if you don't like it then you're perfectly free to look elsewhere for information.

Inheritance tax should be abolished; it hurts the middle-class the most. Countries like Sweden have done fine without it.
Then this kind of attitude isn't conducive to getting rid of it.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
First off human nature is to be greedy
I agree with your sentiments but goddamn the human nature argument pisses me off.


 
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Then this kind of attitude isn't conducive to getting rid of it.
Getting rid of bad media or inheritance tax?


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I agree with your sentiments but goddamn the human nature argument pisses me off.
Well it's the simple truth. People come up with these ideas and they simply will never work based on the way humanity operates. It's the very reason why communism will work on paper but not in real life. If people wouldn't succumb to power and greed then I'd be in full support of a communist system because it is the best out of all systems when written down


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And replace it with what? Socialism? Communism? First off human nature is to be greedy, just look at the nations that called themselves Communist (Cuba, China, Vietnam, North Korea, Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc nations, etc) they all fell victim to a few elite taking control of the nation and wealth and treating the people like shit but utilized brainwashing to make them think they were living a good life. Not only was life terrible under these systems but goods and services were shit also as there were no companies competing to drive innovation, quality improvement, cheap prices, etc. Because human nature is to want things (being greedy) it's the very reason why capitalism, and capitalistic-like systems, have always flourished, it allows everybody to want instead of a small few who then turn to controlling the masses
I would argue that the problem with all those countries is that the state wrested control of the means of production away from the workers after the revolution.

And as shitty as Cuba is, it's still a much better place to live than most South American countries.


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Getting rid of bad media or inheritance tax?
Getting rid of corporate welfare.


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I would argue that the problem with all those countries is that the state wrested control of the means of production away from the workers after the revolution.

And as shitty as Cuba is, it's still a much better place to live than most South American countries.
Well yeah, the state did and that's two reasons (actually three) why Communism never will work.

1. The concept of Communism is to get rid of social classes and government and makes the means of production as common ownership among the people. Those countries exhibited a government and were never truly communist

2. As I said, humans are greedy and will wrestle for control when there's an empty political vacuum. What better what to induce such behavior with a system that has no authority ti stop people from trying to take over? The concept of communism is the best system, when it's written on paper that is

3. These countries went directly from a feudalistic, or feudalistic-type society, directly to a communist one. Karl Marx expressed that society must go through stages in order to reach communism and one of them is capitalism. Ever heard of his saying "Democracy is the road to socialism."?


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1. The concept of Communism is to get rid of social classes and government and makes the means of production as common ownership among the people. Those countries exhibited a government and were never truly communist
Not quite, socialism is an attempt to get rid of social class, communism is the hypothetical end result.

Quote
2. As I said, humans are greedy and will wrestle for control when there's an empty political vacuum. What better what to induce such behavior with a system that has no authority ti stop people from trying to take over? The concept of communism is the best system, when it's written on paper that is
A truly socialist system would have no power vacuum, the workers would have all the power.

Quote
3. These countries went directly from a feudalistic, or feudalistic-type society, directly to a communist one. Karl Marx expressed that society must go through stages in order to reach communism and one of them is capitalism. Ever heard of his saying "Democracy is the road to socialism."?
I've heard Marxists make the same argument. This isn't a criticism of socialism, it's a criticism of Leninism/Maoism.