Should we sacrifice societal well-being in pursuit of the truth?

More Than Mortal · January 10, 2016, 08:10:30 PM

Pretty standard question.

Verbatim · January 10, 2016, 08:12:19 PM

Loaded question; the truth inexorably leads to societal well-being.

More Than Mortal · January 10, 2016, 08:14:00 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 10, 2016, 08:12:19 PM

Loaded question; the truth inexorably leads to societal well-being.

I knew somebody would say this; it's not a satisfactory defence. I doubt you have much empirical evidence for every instance of truth-seeking to promote societal well-being, and such a claim is certainly not justified a priori.

Korra · January 10, 2016, 08:19:05 PM

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 10, 2016, 08:31:42 PM

It depends on the truth in question. Something things aren't worth ruining society as a whole to discover, others might be.

Verbatim · January 10, 2016, 08:36:31 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on January 10, 2016, 08:31:42 PM

Something things aren't worth ruining society as a whole to discover

Like what, and in what way would it ruin society?

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 10, 2016, 08:39:10 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 10, 2016, 08:36:31 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on January 10, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
Something things aren't worth ruining society as a whole to discover
Like what, and in what way would it ruin society?

The question asked if we should sacrifice society for truth; so to that end, the truth itself doesn't necessarily have to be world-ending, just thay chosing it sacrifices society.

I wouldn't sacrifice society to know what brand of toothpaste Bill Clinton uses. Only information vital to the majority of people should be important enough to make that sacrifice for.

More Than Mortal · January 10, 2016, 08:44:39 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 10, 2016, 08:36:31 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on January 10, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
Something things aren't worth ruining society as a whole to discover
Like what, and in what way would it ruin society?

National security secrets; some people have existential crises in response to either a loss of religion or determinism, an uncomfortable truth significant enough could have society-wide implications which aren't positive; you could argue the knowledge of how to build an atomic bomb would be a net negative (although I wouldn't necessarily agree).

There are numerous hypothetical scenarios in which a piece of information could deal damage to a society; even if you don't accept the empirical examples, I'm looking more at your moral principles than your conclusions regarding the nature of truth and its impact.

Turkey · January 10, 2016, 09:01:10 PM

I'm struggling to think of an example where a truth has impacted societal wellbeing. Information has no consequence; its individual interpretation may. One country discovers how to split an atom and they make a bomb -- another uses it to make cheap global electricity a reality. A devout Christian learns there is no god and has a crisis of identity -- an agnostic sees it as enlightenment.

Hypothetically if you had the ability to "release" the truth of some question into the world, your moral choice would involve predicting the global response and its consequences. I would say it's fairly naive to give a generalized answer to this question at all.

More Than Mortal · January 10, 2016, 09:06:14 PM

Quote from: One Punch Turkey on January 10, 2016, 09:01:10 PM

A devout Christian learns there is no god and has a crisis of identity -- an agnostic sees it as enlightenment.

Sure, but we can talk objectively about the aggregate effect of some subjective phenomena.

Quote

I would say it's fairly naive to give a generalized answer to this question at all.

I'm not asking for a generalised answer, really, I'm more interested in your moral principles. When forced to choose, even if only in a single and highly improbably situation, I want to know what you would do.

Verbatim · January 10, 2016, 09:24:20 PM

Quote from: One Punch Turkey on January 10, 2016, 09:01:10 PM

I'm struggling to think of an example where a truth has impacted societal wellbeing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday#Electricity_and_magnetism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin#Discovery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_scientific_discoveries

Individual interpretation of these facts may have varying consequence, sure, but in the grand scheme, most scientific breakthroughs across all of human history have ultimately helped societal well-being, rather than hindered it.

Our entire existence, as much as it pains me to admit it, is based on the intelligent applications of the truth, so your answer is a bit of a dodge.

Sandtrap · January 10, 2016, 09:56:10 PM

What kind of truth, exactly? Pretty broad question.

Jocephalopod · January 10, 2016, 10:03:18 PM

Verbatim · January 10, 2016, 10:05:00 PM

Quote from: UltimateKidzBopFan08 on January 10, 2016, 08:44:39 PM

some people have existential crises in response to either a loss of religion or determinism

You make a fair point, but I can't help but roll my eyes at this.

Cadenza has moved on · January 10, 2016, 11:19:29 PM

I figure that people who can handle the truth will try to find it on their own, and people who can't will try to avoid it even if they don't realize that's what they're doing. I think we should allow people that relay want to know the truth to find and protect everyone else from any life threatening consequences of not knowing it (like preventing people from coming into contact with carcinogens) until they want to learn the truth themselves, and that we should be pushing them towards that desire at all times.

Winy · January 10, 2016, 11:29:24 PM

I think we should always try to find the truth when it comes to pretty much anything, and that those truths tend to be very good for a society as a whole. When you learn the truth about a concept, you can make further applications based off of what you discover as a result. New questions and problems arise, and you now have the tools necessary to continue working on deeper issues associated with them. Just keeps going, I think- And discovery and learning is something I think is always good for the progress of humanity.

eggsalad · January 10, 2016, 11:35:23 PM

Society is required to continue the search for truth. A dysfunctional society can inhibit progress.

BaconShelf · January 11, 2016, 12:45:42 AM

I'd agree in the pursuit of scientific answers, and general knowledge about the universe we live in.

challengerX · January 11, 2016, 04:43:32 AM

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Verbatim · January 11, 2016, 04:49:51 AM

Quote from: challengerX on January 11, 2016, 04:43:32 AM

The atom bomb is the only reason we haven't had another world war and live in a form of peace. I don't think people admire that enough.

Probably because it's absolutely nothing to admire. A society where we perpetually hold guns to each other's heads, so that we don't pull anything over on each other, is a bad society. The atom bomb was the worst invention in human history.

challengerX · January 11, 2016, 06:18:29 AM

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DAS B00T x2 · January 11, 2016, 07:07:00 AM

I demand that Obummer tell us all the truth about the aliens!

Genghis Khan · January 11, 2016, 10:11:42 AM

Hitler said the victor will never be asked if he told the truth.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · January 11, 2016, 02:41:13 PM

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Turkey · January 11, 2016, 03:03:38 PM

Quote from: UltimateKidzBopFan08 on January 10, 2016, 09:06:14 PM

I'm not asking for a generalised answer, really, I'm more interested in your moral principles. When forced to choose, even if only in a single and highly improbably situation, I want to know what you would do.

What's the situation, then?

Verbatim · January 11, 2016, 03:04:55 PM

Quote from: † on January 11, 2016, 02:41:13 PM

What is truth?

bad question

Quote

What is societal well-being?

good question

Verbatim · January 11, 2016, 03:48:58 PM

Quote from: challengerX on January 11, 2016, 06:18:29 AM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 11, 2016, 04:49:51 AM
Quote from: challengerX on January 11, 2016, 04:43:32 AM
The atom bomb is the only reason we haven't had another world war and live in a form of peace. I don't think people admire that enough.
Probably because it's absolutely nothing to admire. A society where we perpetually hold guns to each other's heads so that we don't pull anything over on each other is a bad society. The atom bomb was the worst invention in human history.
Not admire as in the atom bomb is admirable, but as in respect for the fact we've created a weapon so powerful we are now afraid to wage war.

I still don't find that admirable. Sorry.

We shouldn't wage war because war is bad. Not because we're afraid of each other. That was my point.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 11, 2016, 03:57:37 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 11, 2016, 03:04:55 PM

Quote from: † on January 11, 2016, 02:41:13 PM
What is truth?
bad question

Truth is pretty vague. Such a vague question can only have a vague answer.

Verbatim · January 11, 2016, 04:05:31 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on January 11, 2016, 03:57:37 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 11, 2016, 03:04:55 PM
Quote from: † on January 11, 2016, 02:41:13 PM
What is truth?
bad question
Truth is pretty vague. Such a vague question can only have a vague answer.

It's just that I find the answer too obvious. The truth is that which is in accordance with reality--it's that simple.

"What is in accordance with reality?"

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Should we pursue that question for the sake of "societal well-being", or not?

I just find the definition(s) for "well-being" far more interesting than the definition of the truth.
What is societal well-being?

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 11, 2016, 04:12:39 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 11, 2016, 04:05:31 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on January 11, 2016, 03:57:37 PM
Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 11, 2016, 03:04:55 PM
Quote from: † on January 11, 2016, 02:41:13 PM
What is truth?
bad question
Truth is pretty vague. Such a vague question can only have a vague answer.
It's just that I find the answer too obvious. The truth is that which is in accordance with reality--it's that simple.

"What is in accordance with reality?"

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Should we pursue that question for the sake of "societal well-being", or not?

I just find the definition(s) for "well-being" far more interesting than the definition of the truth.
What is societal well-being?

The definition of "truth" in general isn't the question, necessarily; it's that it could be as simple as "does a shoelace contain 98% or 97% cotton?" or something as serious as "is the government circumventing citizens' rights without our knowledge?"

One of those might be worth sacrificing our societal well-being to know, the other isn't. Unless the definition of "truth" is restricted in some way, the answer is going to be subjective.