Should there be regulation when it comes to owning firearms?

 
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Yes.

Gun culture is the most cancerous thing to come out of burgerland. I would have more respect for gun fags if they just buck up and admit they don't want stringent regulations because they like guns. Trying to use tenuous arguments like "protection" will never work because time and time again unrestricted gun access has proven to make communities less safe, not more.
How is protection a tenuous argument? There are old men who have defended their homes from thugs because they had a pistol. Without that they would've been st their mercy until the police showed up.


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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Yes.

Gun culture is the most cancerous thing to come out of burgerland. I would have more respect for gun fags if they just buck up and admit they don't want stringent regulations because they like guns. Trying to use tenuous arguments like "protection" will never work because time and time again unrestricted gun access has proven to make communities less safe, not more.
How is protection a tenuous argument? There are old men who have defended their homes from thugs because they had a pistol. Without that they would've been st their mercy until the police showed up.
I'm not denying there are isolated incidents where having a gun has come in handy, but those incidents could probably be reduced had gun access been restricted to people unfit to actually use firearms. You're actually more likely to be shot by your three year old than you are fending off some rogue attacker.

Nobody is suggesting guns should be banned for people that can respect a weapon, but there clearly needs to be some semblance of effective gun legislation that prevents retards and degenerates from doing the shit they do on a regular basis.
Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 07:50:09 AM by Anglosaxophone


 
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Yes.

Gun culture is the most cancerous thing to come out of burgerland. I would have more respect for gun fags if they just buck up and admit they don't want stringent regulations because they like guns. Trying to use tenuous arguments like "protection" will never work because time and time again unrestricted gun access has proven to make communities less safe, not more.
How is protection a tenuous argument? There are old men who have defended their homes from thugs because they had a pistol. Without that they would've been st their mercy until the police showed up.
I'm not denying there are isolated incidents where having a gun has come in handy, but those incidents could probably be reduced had gun access been restricted to people unfit to actually use firearms. You're actually more likely to be shot by your three year old than you are fending off some rogue attacker.
You're right, and I'm aware of the statistics. But you have to keep in mind how easy it is to get a gun illegally in the US. People trying to defend themselves shouldn't have to suffer just because we have shitty background checks and mental health checks.

But in cases like the LA riots, should the police "turn a blind eye" so to speak in cases of civilians defending themselves?


 
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All these bullshit regulations seem to only be detrimental to normal people that just want to defend themselves.
I'd say it's the complete opposite. If you're legitimately just looking to defend yourself and be a responsible, law abiding gun owner, I feel it would be worth it to jump through a few hoops to get what you want. Especially when those hoops are there to keep guns out of the hands of the baddies. People who argue against this usually don't understand the way the illegal market for guns works and how criminals obtain firearms. At this point, I'd say there's pretty major academic consensus that gun control works. It's just the practical implementation that people disagree on. The more reseach goes into this, the more clear this becomes. I could cite you dozens of studies finding this, but that wouldn't get us anywhere, so I'll limit this to a few very recent and notable ones.

A 2016 study by Harvard Medical School concluded that "stronger gun policies were associated with decreased rates of firearm homicide".
Another 2016 meta-analysis of 130 studies (the biggest of its kind to date, done by Columbia University) also concluded that more gun restrictions equal fewer deaths. This coincides with other high profile research by Harvard finding that looser gun control laws and higher rates of firearm ownership are linked to more firearm robberies, more firearm assaults and more homicide in general, and Boston University analyzing gun control and gun crime trends over the course of 30 years to again confirm the link between access to firearms and high rate of firearm homicides. On the opposite end, research done by Stanford University recently reaffirmed that right-to-carry gun laws are connected with an increase in violent crime. Perhaps the most relevant piece of research is this study from December 2016. It's conducted by an infamous pro-gun researcher, making this all the more interesting. He looked at all major American cities and found that "requiring a license to possess a gun appears to reduce rates of both homicide and robbery", and that there exists (albeit weaker) evidence to also suggest that other types of gun control may reduce assault and robbery rates.

If you want to see this put in a more coherent way, I can recommend this (part 2, but it's more relevant) and this (part 1). It does a pretty good job at illustrating how gun control works and how it doesn't just hurt the normal people looking to defend themselves.

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Imagine, this was in the 90's when gun control wasn't that big of a thing. How would you feel if you were arrested for protecting your business from looters?
How many of them actually got in serious trouble for it? I would fully expect to be arrested for breaking the law, but mitigating circumstances should be taken into account.


 
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Imagine, this was in the 90's when gun control wasn't that big of a thing.
I mean... the late 80s saw the Hughes amendment and then the early 90's Clinton's assault weapons ban happened.


 
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Imagine, this was in the 90's when gun control wasn't that big of a thing.
I mean... the late 80s saw the Hughes amendment and then the early 90's Clinton's assault weapons ban happened.
Yeah, I didn't mention that because these riots happened in '92, but the 90's and early 2000's were a time of major gun control reforms all over the world as a result of high profile shootings and crime trends.


 
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Imagine, this was in the 90's when gun control wasn't that big of a thing.
I mean... the late 80s saw the Hughes amendment and then the early 90's Clinton's assault weapons ban happened.
But wasn't the assault weapons ban after the riots?


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.

Imagine, this was in the 90's when gun control wasn't that big of a thing.
I mean... the late 80s saw the Hughes amendment and then the early 90's Clinton's assault weapons ban happened.
But wasn't the assault weapons ban after the riots?
Yeah but it wasn't an immediate reaction, you had very strong calls for gun control reforms appearing after the Kennedy assassination and everything just built up from there.


 
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Imagine, this was in the 90's when gun control wasn't that big of a thing.
I mean... the late 80s saw the Hughes amendment and then the early 90's Clinton's assault weapons ban happened.
But wasn't the assault weapons ban after the riots?
Yeah but it wasn't an immediate reaction, you had very strong calls for gun control reforms appearing after the Kennedy assassination and everything just built up from there.
But I'm saying in the early 90's in California it was nowhere near as strict as it is today.


 
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I should be allowed to own recreational nuclear warheads if I so please.


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I should be allowed to own recreational nuclear warheads if I so please.
Just like our forefathers intended.


 
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slashX is getting pretty sad to watch
Why should I take you seriously when you literally just said we should live in a police state/dictatorship while opposing trump?
because that would be fucking awesome?


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Da Husk.
I should be allowed to own recreational nuclear warheads if I so please.
Just like our forefathers intended.
Stepping on the snake is a violation of the NAP.


 
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I should be allowed to own recreational nuclear warheads if I so please.
Just like our forefathers intended.
Stepping on the snake is a violation of the NAP.
But what if the snake consents?



 
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slashX is getting pretty sad to watch
Why should I take you seriously when you literally just said we should live in a police state/dictatorship while opposing trump?
because that would be fucking awesome?
How? A lot of people oppose drumpf because they see him as a dictatorial figure so that doesn't really follow.


 
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slashX is getting pretty sad to watch
Why should I take you seriously when you literally just said we should live in a police state/dictatorship while opposing trump?
because that would be fucking awesome?
How? A lot of people oppose drumpf because they see him as a dictatorial figure so that doesn't really follow.
not all dictators are malevolent


 
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I'd say it's the complete opposite. If you're legitimately just looking to defend yourself and be a responsible, law abiding gun owner, I feel it would be worth it to jump through a few hoops to get what you want. Especially when those hoops are there to keep guns out of the hands of the baddies. People who argue against this usually don't understand the way the illegal market for guns works and how criminals obtain firearms. At this point, I'd say there's pretty major academic consensus that gun control works. It's just the practical implementation that people disagree on. The more reseach goes into this, the more clear this becomes. I could cite you dozens of studies finding this, but that wouldn't get us anywhere, so I'll limit this to a few very recent and notable ones.
I am aware of how the illegal market for guns works, don't worry. I'm also not one of those idiots that makes the bullshit argument of "LOL GUNS R BANNED IN CHICAGO AND LOOK HOW BAD IT IS LMAO".

I just feel that the way a lot of these laws are implemented is terrible. Many of them seem very reasonable on paper, but in practice results in bullshit raids by the ATF.

Quote
A 2016 study by Harvard Medical School concluded that "stronger gun policies were associated with decreased rates of firearm homicide".
Another 2016 meta-analysis of 130 studies (the biggest of its kind to date, done by Columbia University) also concluded that more gun restrictions equal fewer deaths. This coincides with other high profile research by Harvard finding that looser gun control laws and higher rates of firearm ownership are linked to more firearm robberies, more firearm assaults and more homicide in general, and Boston University analyzing gun control and gun crime trends over the course of 30 years to again confirm the link between access to firearms and high rate of firearm homicides. On the opposite end, research done by Stanford University recently reaffirmed that right-to-carry gun laws are connected with an increase in violent crime. Perhaps the most relevant piece of research is this study from December 2016. It's conducted by an infamous pro-gun researcher, making this all the more interesting. He looked at all major American cities and found that "requiring a license to possess a gun appears to reduce rates of both homicide and robbery", and that there exists (albeit weaker) evidence to also suggest that other types of gun control may reduce assault and robbery rates.

If you want to see this put in a more coherent way, I can recommend this (part 2, but it's more relevant) and this (part 1). It does a pretty good job at illustrating how gun control works and how it doesn't just hurt the normal people looking to defend themselves.
I can't argue against the facts, legislation absolutely causes a noticeable decrease in homicides and especially accidental deaths. But I feel that certain things might be skewed, and that many gun crimes are lumped together and that illegal guns are even thrown into the statistics.

I feel like it's too easy to buy a firearm in some states, and then that they make it extremely difficult in others. What's the point if the legislation isn't even nationwide?

And I think especially that certain laws like a 10 round magazine limit are absolutely retarded.

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How many of them actually got in serious trouble for it? I would fully expect to be arrested for breaking the law, but mitigating circumstances should be taken into account.
I don't know, honestly. I'm not sure to what extent it was taken within the legal system.

But why should you expect to be arrested for carrying a rifle (which you didn't need licensing for at the time) or even a pistol (which do need licensing) if you're just defending yourself? Surely the parameters should change? What's your opinion on that, as a lawyer?


 
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slashX is getting pretty sad to watch
Why should I take you seriously when you literally just said we should live in a police state/dictatorship while opposing trump?
because that would be fucking awesome?
How? A lot of people oppose drumpf because they see him as a dictatorial figure so that doesn't really follow.
not all dictators are malevolent
That's extremely rare in history. And when the benevolent dictator dies, you're back to a terrible existence. Even then they usually had advisors and other important figures helping to make decisions.

Imagine having drumpf since he was 18 until he dies. Instead of (maybe) another 3 years. At worst 7.


 
Flee
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I just feel that the way a lot of these laws are implemented is terrible. Many of them seem very reasonable on paper, but in practice results in bullshit raids by the ATF.
I'm not sure that the ATF concerns itself much with raiding small time gun owners, but you're right in saying they're not perfect. It's just some of the best we can come up with about now, flawed as it may be, because the alternative of not having these regulations is definitely a lot worse.
Quote
But I feel that certain things might be skewed, and that many gun crimes are lumped together and that illegal guns are even thrown into the statistics.
They sure are, but that doesn't really change the fact of the matter. There are no large scale underground criminal factories making illegal guns. Pretty much every single last one of them was once legal. It's the easy access to legal firearms that fuels the black market and illegal use of guns. You can't just look at the statistics surrounding legal guns when to assess gun regulations when the existence of these regulations is directly responsible for all of the illegal use too. Two sides of the same coin. That being said, I agree that some research might be skewed. The state of gun violence and control research in the US is lacking in a lot of ways, and this and this perfectly explain part of why.
Quote
I feel like it's too easy to buy a firearm in some states, and then that they make it extremely difficult in others. What's the point if the legislation isn't even nationwide?
Probably the number one thing that gun control advocates argue for are nationwide regulations. Creating these islands of stricter gun control is inherently flawed as guns used for crime in states/cities with stricter gun control legislation are simply brought in from the closest state with loose laws.

Quote
And I think especially that certain laws like a 10 round magazine limit are absolutely retarded.
There's an argument to be made in their favor, but it's a weak one at best. It's often seen that active shooters who are forced to reload often create the best possible scenario for victims to escape or even take the shooter down. And there is some evidence out there to suggest that limits on magazine size result in larger magazines being used less and less in crime. But yeah, it doesn't do much.

Quote
But why should you expect to be arrested for carrying a rifle (which you didn't need licensing for at the time) or even a pistol (which do need licensing) if you're just defending yourself? Surely the parameters should change? What's your opinion on that, as a lawyer?
I'm really not looking to comment on the specifics of these riots or defend the actions of the police, as I'm not too familiar with them myself. But at a more abstract level, I don't think that the parameters should change. The law is as it is. It cannot be too vague, but it can't be too specific either. The law is there to set guidelines and limits. These rules are then applied to specific contexts by judges who interpret the law and base themselves on legal doctrine and existing jurisprudence. I think that it is only just that these people were arrested if they were breaking the law. It's typically not up to the police to decide who can get away with doing something illegal. This should go to court where a judge takes into account mitigating circumstances, gets to the bottom of the situation and reaches an appropriate conclusion. If not, you're opening the door to so much shit. John Doe might claim that he's just doing this to protect himself ("what's the harm in me having these guns, I'm not a criminal and just keep them to keep my family safe"), but in reality he might be a middleman in a straw purchase scheme where he sells these guns to criminals who can't get them themselves.

Consistency is important. I don't think you can give anyone a pass or a special treatment because they're just breaking the law for their own safety or because they claim they're not actually going to harm anyone else. That doesn't mean I condone what happened to these people, but opening the door just a bit will only give rise to a lot of abuse. This should go to court where, for example, a judge would let them off with a warning, confiscation of the firearms and a push in the direction of getting a gun legally.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Shooting dogs during unjustified raids is actually the official ATF passtime, flee.


 
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Shooting dogs during unjustified raids is actually the official ATF passtime, flee.
I heard it's because the tradition of law enforcement shooting blacks has become somewhat of a sensitive topic these past few years.


 
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OT: Yes, of course there should be. For example, those who are mentally handicapped and those previously convicted of felonies shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.
I don't think anybody disputes that.
Somewhat relevant, but Trump very quietly turned back measures put in place by Obama to keep the mentally ill from obtaining firearms. No media coverage, no announcements, just a slight mention at the bottom of a White House press release.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Go Donald.


 
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Quote
OT: Yes, of course there should be. For example, those who are mentally handicapped and those previously convicted of felonies shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.
I don't think anybody disputes that.
Somewhat relevant, but Trump very quietly turned back measures put in place by Obama to keep the mentally ill from obtaining firearms. No media coverage, no announcements, just a slight mention at the bottom of a White House press release.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Go Donald.
I know I saw

I'll get to your other post later.


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Quote
OT: Yes, of course there should be. For example, those who are mentally handicapped and those previously convicted of felonies shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.
I don't think anybody disputes that.
Somewhat relevant, but Trump very quietly turned back measures put in place by Obama to keep the mentally ill from obtaining firearms. No media coverage, no announcements, just a slight mention at the bottom of a White House press release.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Go Donald.
There are a whole slew of arguments again legislating gun restrictions for the mentally ill though. First of all, it incorrectly identifies the mentally ill as highly susceptible to violent crimes, which is simply untrue. Second, it provides a barrier to diagnosis for people that are afraid their freedoms will slowly be regulated away just because they seek treatment for their illness; it stigmatizes mental illness as a source of crime. Suicide by firearm is a serious issue, as it's the most successful method, but at what point does the government step aside from baby-proofing the house, if you will? The U.S. and U.K. have comparable suicide rates, so clearly the solution isn't as easy as banning guns. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying you believe that's the only step that should be taken, but whether gun bans actually decrease suicide rates is highly contested.


 
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OT: Yes, of course there should be. For example, those who are mentally handicapped and those previously convicted of felonies shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.
I don't think anybody disputes that.
Somewhat relevant, but Trump very quietly turned back measures put in place by Obama to keep the mentally ill from obtaining firearms. No media coverage, no announcements, just a slight mention at the bottom of a White House press release.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Go Donald.
There are a whole slew of arguments again legislating gun restrictions for the mentally ill though. First of all, it incorrectly identifies the mentally ill as highly susceptible to violent crimes, which is simply untrue. Second, it provides a barrier to diagnosis for people that are afraid their freedoms will slowly be regulated away just because they seek treatment for their illness; it stigmatizes mental illness as a source of crime. Suicide by firearm is a serious issue, as it's the most successful method, but at what point does the government step aside from baby-proofing the house, if you will? The U.S. and U.K. have comparable suicide rates, so clearly the solution isn't as easy as banning guns. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying you believe that's the only step that should be taken, but whether gun bans actually decrease suicide rates is highly contested.
I agree, I dedicated a very lengthy thread to the links between gun violence and mental illness at one point. But while there's no real link between the two, there is a link between mental illness and the highly publicized shootings. It's a poor measure on its own, but I'd say there's still a strong argument to be made that there should be more restrictions on owning and publicly carrying firearms for those suffering from established mental illnesses. That this might deter some from seeking help is one of the only decent counter arguments against it. It's one of those things that kind of needs a change in public opinion to go with it, but that's not something you can force.

And while it's definitely contested, I personally think that restricting the access to gun is likely to have an effect on suicide rates. Comparisons between different countries reflect this poorly, but I can think of several studies looking at the same area before and after gun control reforms that found notable positive effects on suicide rates, or that identified the heightened risk of suicide due to the presence of a firearm.


There's no hard proof for anything like this because there's simply too many other factors that come into play, but if I were to bet I'd say that the evidence in favor of guns being a major risk factor for suicides and gun control's positive effect on suicide rates is considerably stronger than to the opposite.
Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 03:31:49 PM by Flee


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Did he say glass of juice or gas the Jews?
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πŸ‘©πŸ½:!!

πŸ‘ΆπŸ½:hhh...

πŸ‘ΆπŸ½:here come dat boi 🐸!

πŸ‘¨πŸ½:o shit waddup πŸ˜‚πŸ’―

πŸ‘©πŸ½:πŸ’”
I think there should be some. My limit? If you're gonna get a firearm, you should be required to take a safety course (don't ask me how long) on proper usage, and storage of the gun. Too many times you see incidents where guns are mishandled or stored poorly.
Training and licensing requirements are really just ways to disenfranchise a whole underprivileged socioeconomic class of their right to firearms ownership because of either cost or time barriers, as they may not have the proper times open in their daily schedule because of wage slaving all day or they could lack the means to effectively transport themselves to and from the classes.
Wanna know my rebuttal to that?

If they can do it with voting via ID's which is the same as you described to the same class of people, they can do it with guns.
It costs thousands just to get a license to own a automatic and you have to go though hell in the US just to get a suppressor so the firearm is safer on the ears. I do feel there should be a better control on firearms, but the problem is having it in a way where only the well to do/rich are able to get a license. We all know if there is a license to own a firearm then the far left would have it cost an amount where your underprivileged person wouldn't be able to afford it and the waiting period would be insane.


 
DAS B00T x2
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
There is no machine gun license. You just get a piece of paper from the ATF saying that they have received your two hundred dollars and you are now legally able to own whatever serialed, registered NFA item you applied for a year and a half ago.


Avatar Korra | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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I am the wielder of the flame, the protector of balance
I am the holder of the torch, lighting the way
I am the keeper of the flame, soldier of balance
I am a guardian of balance
I am the Gray Jedi.
slashX is getting pretty sad to watch
Why should I take you seriously when you literally just said we should live in a police state/dictatorship while opposing trump?
because that would be fucking awesome?
How? A lot of people oppose drumpf because they see him as a dictatorial figure so that doesn't really follow.
not all dictators are malevolent
HELL YEAH MY BOI JULIUS WAS TEH MAN


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I am the wielder of the flame, the protector of balance
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I am the keeper of the flame, soldier of balance
I am a guardian of balance
I am the Gray Jedi.
Actually I think automatic and semi-auto guns should be heavily regulated, assault weapons in general. Anything with a caliber bigger than your standard handgun should not be readily to be sold to people.

Basically, sell more muskets and Colt Single Action Army revolvers.