Should police be allowed to kill you if you don't follow directions?

Chaos Metal Dragon | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: ChaosMetalDrago
PSN: Warden_Eternal
Steam: LoverOfJesusMKII
ID: ChaosMetalDragon
IP: Logged

10,705 posts
 
Perhaps American police need to be trained to deescalate situations instead of thinking they are staring in some western shootout movie 24/7.


 
 
Flee
| Marty Forum Ninja
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Flee
IP: Logged

15,606 posts
 
Maybe some legal experts need to chime in here, but where are the laws saying I need to do what police say, even on my own property, and if I don't I can be justifiably shot?
Not to my knowledge. Police don't have any more of a right to shoot someone than you do. They do have a more explicit mandate to use force when necessary to accomplish their tasks (fighting crime and providing general security), but that is limited to what's reasonable and non-excessive. They can only shoot someone when necessary to protect themselves or others from a reasonable threat and when no other means were adequate in the situation. There's a lot more (and arguably too much) leniency when judging this than there is with your average citizen because being a police officer is already a dangerous job to begin with, but you cannot be justifiably shot for not complying without there being a real danger to the officer or others.

It's why these mishaps should be looked at on a case by case basis. On the one hand, the guy ultimately didn't have a gun, committed no crime and probably only dropped his hands by accident, because he couldn't hear what was said or because he was just overwhelmed with what was going on. In retrospect, there was no reason to shoot. On the other hand, the police was called there to respond to the shooting of a man and a hostage scenario where others were likely to be killed and the entire house set on fire. The US is a country with very high rates of gun violence and firearm ownership, so its officers are trained accordingly to expect or be prepared for a potential gun in every situation. When you're under the impression you're dealing with a murdering lunatic in the process of murdering his entire family, a man suddenly lowering his arms to his waist can easily come across as someone reaching for a weapon.

The police were clearly in the wrong, but it's not always that easy to judge. This is for a very large part caused by the American gun culture that necessitates law enforcement to be trained in an almost combative way because every situation can potentially and very easily turn deadly due to the likelihood of a gun being involved. Almost 150 police officers were killed in the US in 2016. That's nearly 3 per week. Thousands more were assaulted with firearms the same year. And that makes it a lot more understandable why a nervous cop is a bit too quick to pull the trigger.


 
challengerX
| custom title
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: challengerX
IP: Logged

42,025 posts
I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
Perhaps American police need to be trained to deescalate situations instead of thinking they are staring in some western shootout movie 24/7.
They are in a western shootout movie 24/7 in major cities. Criminals are heavily armed with automatic weapons and it's not as bad as it used to be 20 or even 10 years ago but people still bust on the police a lot.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Madman Mordo
IP: Logged

6,942 posts
emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
It wouldn't be as big of an issue if America didn't have such a faggy gun culture.

It's easy to hand-wave American police off as trigger happy retards but if you live in a country where firearms are literally worshipped and the prospect of getting shot by a random citizen is so astronomically high, then it doesn't take a genius to understand why they're always on edge.

Not giving unjustifiable shootings a free pass, but it isn't as black and white as "cops should be taught to stop shooting people."


Azumarill | Mythic Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Azumarill
IP: Logged

7,661 posts
 


Winy | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL: Phasenectar
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Winy
IP: Logged

3,145 posts
 
If someone had a firearm and was commanded to "Drop the weapon," but refused to, then obviously it's a bit more understandable why lethal force could be used as opposed to someone refusing to gesture themselves in some way (Like raising or lowering your hands) when there's no immediate threat that's recognizable. Clearly it's not permissible for an officer to say "Please step out of the vehicle," me saying "No," and then getting filled with lead, no matter how many times I refuse to. But it's all dependent on the context. Sometimes orders are much more pressing and necessary.


 
Carmen
| Bad Newbie
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: SecondClass
IP: Logged

28,853 posts
Quote
“If you make a mistake, another mistake, there is a very severe possibility that you’re both going to get shot. Do you understand?” Sgt. Charles Langley yells before telling Shaver to “shut up.”

“I’m not here to be tactical and diplomatic with you. You listen. You obey,” the officer says.
"Every day our good officers selflessly put their lives on the line to serve the citizens they represent. If you don't respect them, then you're entitled and ungrateful..."


MarKhan | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: MarKhan54
ID: MarKhan
IP: Logged

2,010 posts
HE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NEVER THE END IS NE
My police sleeps in another town, so....


Nixeris | Member
 
more |
XBL: Nixris
PSN:
Steam: Nixeris
ID: Nixeris
IP: Logged

41 posts
 
I don't think the police should have anywhere near the authority society gives them, the ability to take lives with little to no repercussions. Not to mention the fascistic undertones of the system.

But the shooting of Daniel Shaver made some of my acquaintances preaching the "ACAB" ideology seem like the sane ones for once, better than ignoring the issues and pretending everything is okay at the very least.


Mega Sceptile | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Mega Sceptile
IP: Logged

2,096 posts
 
I believe that yes, if you play stupid games by dicking around and reaching into your pockets, and you should win an equally stupid prize. It seriously isn't that hard people, just do what the guy with a gun says and don't reach into a pocket like you have a fucking gun in a country where 90% of the population is armed.

 keep in mind that these NORMAL people deal with the absolute trash of the population every single day and have to see the worst of every person they meet.
My grandfather, who worked in our local force for 40 years, had to carry out a 2 month old baby who's skull was caved in by it's druggie parents when they were partying, not giving two shits and high out of their minds on coke. they heard the baby's crying for food and thought it was some monster so the mother caved her own child's skill in by throwing it against a wall.

that shit will change you, and that's just one of the situations he had to deal with in his 40 years, there were countless he didn't have the heart to talk about when I asked about it. So, don't be surprised when the cop who has been dealign with that kind of shit for 7 hours pulls the trigger for you reaching for your waistband, after they said to put your hands up, because the other 25 times out of 30 people who they did the same thing to over their service had a gun in their hands, and if they hesitated someone else would've also been in a body bag.


Azumarill | Mythic Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Azumarill
IP: Logged

7,661 posts
 
I believe that yes, if you play stupid games by dicking around and reaching into your pockets, and you should win an equally stupid prize. It seriously isn't that hard people, just do what the guy with a gun says and don't reach into a pocket like you have a fucking gun in a country where 90% of the population is armed.

 keep in mind that these NORMAL people deal with the absolute trash of the population every single day and have to see the worst of every person they meet.
My grandfather, who worked in our local force for 40 years, had to carry out a 2 month old baby who's skull was caved in by it's druggie parents when they were partying, not giving two shits and high out of their minds on coke. they heard the baby's crying for food and thought it was some monster so the mother caved her own child's skill in by throwing it against a wall.

that shit will change you, and that's just one of the situations he had to deal with in his 40 years, there were countless he didn't have the heart to talk about when I asked about it. So, don't be surprised when the cop who has been dealign with that kind of shit for 7 hours pulls the trigger for you reaching for your waistband, after they said to put your hands up, because the other 25 times out of 30 people who they did the same thing to over their service had a gun in their hands, and if they hesitated someone else would've also been in a body bag.
haha yea bang bang dumb loser shouldnt have moved, comply or die amirite


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,115 posts
 
You can only kill a person that is directly threatening the safety and lives of others.

I think it's reasonable to say that for every instance of wrongful killing by a cop, apart from instances of intentional abuse of power, the cops don't intend to simply murder a citizen and act because they feel the individual is a mortal danger to themselves or others.


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


#deletemysep7agonaccount | Mythic Unfrigginbelievable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Decimator Omega
IP: Logged

22,087 posts
 
Only if I pull out or act like I have a gun on me and pretend to pull it out, then they have the right to shoot me dead.

So to an extent. When it comes to the police I would comply. Fight it in court, not in the streets.


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


#deletemysep7agonaccount | Mythic Unfrigginbelievable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Decimator Omega
IP: Logged

22,087 posts
 
Only if I pull out or act like I have a gun on me and pretend to pull it out, then they have the right to shoot me dead.

So to an extent. When it comes to the police I would comply. Fight it in court, not in the streets.

Good point about the threatening gesture, which does warrant killing. However, I can not encourage surrendering to corrupt authority members and fighting it in a broken and biased justice system. That judge collects his paycheck from the same source the cop does, theft of citizens. That cop actively steals from citizens on top of that. Sometimes it is better to perish fighting for freedom than to live as a slave.

I guess I'd rather remain a slave. My life isn't worth fighting over money.


 
DAS B00T x2
| Cultural Appropriator
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: DAS B00T x2
IP: Logged

37,106 posts
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
All I'm saying fam, is that if I ain't threatening the livelihood of that cop and he pulls a firearm on me, I should 100% be within my rights to draw my own firearm and pre-emptively kill that cop before he illegally kills me.


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,115 posts
 
All I'm saying fam, is that if I ain't threatening the livelihood of that cop and he pulls a firearm on me, I should 100% be within my rights to draw my own firearm and pre-emptively kill that cop before he illegally kills me.

You are, but your life is 100% fucked afterwards.


 
DAS B00T x2
| Cultural Appropriator
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: DAS B00T x2
IP: Logged

37,106 posts
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
All I'm saying fam, is that if I ain't threatening the livelihood of that cop and he pulls a firearm on me, I should 100% be within my rights to draw my own firearm and pre-emptively kill that cop before he illegally kills me.

You are, but your life is 100% fucked afterwards.
And that is the injustice in the system that we should be fighting.


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

46,377 posts
and if you do get wrongfully murdered, the cop should be put to death

that's the only appropriate punishment—becoming a police officer should be signing a death warrant should you abuse your power


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

46,377 posts
and if you do get wrongfully murdered, the cop should be put to death

that's the only appropriate punishment—becoming a police officer should be signing a death warrant should you abuse your power
Why not life in prison? Seems silly to  murder and then claim murder is wrong.
murder isn't wrong

murder for no good reason is wrong

killing someone for having no good reason for murdering is a good reason
Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 11:40:00 PM by Shhhhhh


 
DAS B00T x2
| Cultural Appropriator
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: DAS B00T x2
IP: Logged

37,106 posts
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
and if you do get wrongfully murdered, the cop should be put to death

that's the only appropriate punishment—becoming a police officer should be signing a death warrant should you abuse your power
Why not life in prison? Seems silly to  murder and then claim murder is wrong.
murder isn't wrong

murder for no good reason is wrong

killing someone for having no good reason for murdering is a good reason
Justifiable taking of a life isn't murder.


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

46,377 posts
and if you do get wrongfully murdered, the cop should be put to death

that's the only appropriate punishment—becoming a police officer should be signing a death warrant should you abuse your power
Why not life in prison? Seems silly to  murder and then claim murder is wrong.
murder isn't wrong

murder for no good reason is wrong

killing someone for having no good reason for murdering is a good reason
Justifiable taking of a life isn't murder.
i'm just playing along with his choice of words, i don't expect him to able to understand that nuance


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

46,377 posts
I think it is a bad reason, and we have no authority to murder. Besides, life in prison is a much harsher punishment and they deserve a long life of misery to reflect on what the did.
prisons are relatively comfy and people are highly adaptive—they're very good at convincing themselves that the shit they're swimming in "isn't so bad," because in that scenario, they have no other psychologically rewarding choice

it's also just delaying the inevitable

killing them instantly is just ridding the world of another piece of fucking garbage

the only thing is, it costs more to put someone on death row than it does to keep them in prison, and since that's the only logic-based point you could really bring up, i'm not surprised you failed to do so
Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 11:57:22 PM by Shhhhhh


Vegeta Wars | Posting Spree
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Vegeta Wars
IP: Logged

113 posts
 
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.