Seperating pupils on ability... is a bad thing? LolNUT

 
 
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<.<
Be warned this is going to be Britbongistan central, but there will be bits for you yanks and commonwealthers <.<

NUT= National Union of Teachers, the idiots who strike 24/7 and bitch about their oh so hard jobs.

Anyway, here's something amusing.

They claim that seperating the idiots from the smart kids is a bad thing because it 'holds back the poor'. Well excuse me missy, but I'm going to call bullshit on that one, I went to an ordinary high school from a predominantly middle/lower class area. We were divided up into Sets based on ability, Set 1 through to 4.

The only correlation was intelligence/ability/applying yourself to the work, with jack shit to do with wealth.

The best and brightest in the school were from poor/shitty backgrounds with one or two coming from middle-uppers. The pondscum in set 4 were equally rich idiots and filthy peasants.

What it meant was, that sets 1 and 2 would have the cream of the crop and we'd all end up with good grades whilst three and four were aiming for a C/not a fail grade. So imagine the shock horror when some of the brighter kids (Myself and my friend among them, both from poor households) come out with a metric fuck tonne of GCSEs and some of the rich wastrels and dregs come out with a diploma in fucking around.

/Rant

[Article for those who want to read it]

Tl;dr
Teacher's Union acting like idiots again, they claim that separating the smart kids from the retards is a bad thing because it holds the poor back. I spam an anecdotal rant and here we are at the tl;dr.

Thoughts on the concept of filtering smart cookies and above average kids from a pack of howling chimpanzees in high school?


 
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Ehh... I didn't read the article so I'm not sure what stance they're arguing from, but tracking can lead to some real discrimination problems as grades aren't always an indicator of intelligence and you have many instances where a student may have the intelligence yet lack the resources and proper environment to cultivate it.

A woman I work with was born and raised in the Philippines where tracking in education is a thing. While she was in the top tier for her schooling system she saw how awful people in the lower tiers were treated by both her peers and staff even though in many cases it wasn't that these kids were stupid it's just that they didn't grow up in an environment conducive to learning. 


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Gonna have to disagree. At least with the 1-4 concept.

I can see separating special needs students. And separating "some" classes like AP that count as college credit.

But Separating generally isn't good. 


 
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Classes should be divided broadly on merit.

Like two sets of foundation and then higher. I don't think it need go further than that.


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That doesn't really have anything to do with anything.
Off-topic, but oh well.

Remember that discussion about the EPA we had a while back where I claimed it was an example of horrendous governmental action, and you were defending it. Just thought I'd let you know you won; done some digging, changed my mind. The EPA isn't all bad.


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I never actually finished that argument though, I just stopped replying. I was going to say something about how the EPA changes its mission with each presidential administration so it's only ideal when there isn't a Republican in office.
FTFY.


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There is a correlation between poor performance at school and wealth disparity though, so I'll have to respectively disagree with you there. While something definitely needs to be done about encouraging children from low income backgrounds to perform better at school, whether NUT is the solution for that is up for debate. I wouldn't be so quick to cast aspersions given the good intention behind it.
Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 12:33:22 PM by Madman Mordo


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I'd agree that the NUT's reasoning to do with wealth is stupid, but segregating kids by the aptness is bad.


 
 
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There is a correlation between poor performance at school and wealth disparity though, so I'll have to respectively disagree with you there. While something definitely needs to be done about encouraging children from low income backgrounds to perform better at school, whether NUT is the solution for that is up for debate. I wouldn't be so quick to cast aspersions given the good intention behind it.

Ah I suppose <.<

I just hated the mixed ability classes that I had because it was invariably full of idiots, Science and Maths were segregated on ability but English wasn't. Aaand guess which one was full of trogs ._.

I just don't like how the high achievers are held back by homogenising the classroom to bring up the averages.


 
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Ah I suppose <.<

I just hated the mixed ability classes that I had because it was invariably full of idiots, Science and Maths were segregated on ability but English wasn't. Aaand guess which one was full of trogs ._.

I just don't like how the high achievers are held back by homogenising the classroom to bring up the averages.
I agree with you there. The way group-work was focused often left me doing all the work.


 
 
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In general, those born with more wealth usually get better grades than those with less wealth according to years of research, so it's really not true that there isn't a correlation between wealth and success. I'm going to guess that NUT's reasoning in eliminating skill level separation is so that it forces the lowest/easiest curriculum to be taught meaning that least intelligent students benefit the most and the most intelligent students to benefit the least, thus closing the 'knowledge gap.' Or maybe they're just looking out for themselves and they don't want to be bothered with higher curriculum and having to teach multiple different skill levels.

That's what I didn't like <.<

Closing the gap simply ends up with dragging the highest down to the lower levels, they aren't able to do as well because the class is constantly being slowed down by kids who don't understand, won't behave or never do their damn homework. Not understanding isn't a problem if you ask for help and then that's that, but when you decide to fuck around all day instead of trying to solve the problem... My sympathy level drops to rock bottom >.>


 
 
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I agree with you there. The way group-work was focused often left me doing all the work.

Christ I know that feeling. Because I was nice to people, I'd always end up being lumped with the trogs. I don't have a problem with doing the work for the group on my own, but when they try to interfere... Not contribute or help, but just hinder... Y'all can get the fuck out and do it yourselves.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I have to ask, even if there is a correlation with wealth - who cares?

I agree with Commissar that poorer kids can grow up in an environment not conducive to learning, but the solution is never to punish the children doing well, even if the majority of them come from affluent background.


 
 
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Ehh... I didn't read the article so I'm not sure what stance they're arguing from, but tracking can lead to some real discrimination problems as grades aren't always an indicator of intelligence and you have many instances where a student may have the intelligence yet lack the resources and proper environment to cultivate it.

A woman I work with was born and raised in the Philippines where tracking in education is a thing. While she was in the top tier for her schooling system she saw how awful people in the lower tiers were treated by both her peers and staff even though in many cases it wasn't that these kids were stupid it's just that they didn't grow up in an environment conducive to learning.

Yeah, I do see that sort of problem <.<

It was a bit less discriminatory than that though, people could move up and down based on their general ability rather than a single test deciding their fate >.> Set 1 for maths at least (In my old school) was based on your attitude and work ethic, as well as ability. If you worked hard and didn't feck around then you got bumped up to the more advanced work but if you acted like a typical mouthbreather then you'd be given average or mouthbreather work >.>


 
 
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I have to ask, even if there is a correlation with wealth - who cares?

I agree with Commissar that poorer kids can grow up in an environment not conducive to learning, but the solution is never to punish the children doing well, even if the majority of them come from affluent background.

Whilst I'm not generally of the capitalist mindset for things, I am inclined that way over education.

Some people are born bright and should be allowed to burn at their full potential, some people are born blunt and should still be given the opportunity to flourish but not at the cost of the most able. So something along the lines of a meritocracy >.>


 
 
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I'm glad that you weren't affected by it, but there's definitely a relationship between wealth/background and educational prowess. Richer parents are also usually the higher educated ones, so they are a lot more likely to stimulate their child intellectually, be more invested in their education and have their child aim "higher" for a future with a higher end college degree.

I'm not saying that programs like the US Common Core or "no child left behind" are the right way of going about this, but it's hard to deny that there is a problem here.

I'm not too familiar with the US systems for this but yeah <.<

I suppose I was just somewhat lucky on that front then but it really does strike me like this.


 
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Whilst I'm not generally of the capitalist mindset for things, I am inclined that way over education.

Some people are born bright and should be allowed to burn at their full potential, some people are born blunt and should still be given the opportunity to flourish but not at the cost of the most able. So something along the lines of a meritocracy >.>
I completely agree.

I think too much emphasis is placed on higher education, too. It's being turned into an extension of college, pretty much. To much credentialism and too high prices are going to force universities to start offering services commensurate with the price. People of lower intelligence aren't, as many of us assume, placed in a position of a net negative outcome.

People like that are the apprentices and the labourers of our society. The plumbers and the electricians - people who find their calling in more vocational work.


 
 
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I completely agree.

I think too much emphasis is placed on higher education, too. It's being turned into an extension of college, pretty much. To much credentialism and too high prices are going to force universities to start offering services commensurate with the price. People of lower intelligence aren't, as many of us assume, placed in a position of a net negative outcome.

People like that are the apprentices and the labourers of our society. The plumbers and the electricians - people who find their calling in more vocational work.

Indeed <.<


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This is crap, i'd be near the bottom in terms of wealth, but in terms of academic ability i'm in the top 1% of the nation easy. In fact. I know no-one in the top-set that comes from a wealthy background, lower sets however...


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.


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Actually, I read a paper in my AP Lang class about how the U.S. education system was based on Prussia's and that sepaying individuals based on ability was one of the things they did.
IMO: yeah it's great not to deal with stupid people in class, but the long term effects of separating the stupid from the smart might create a class system where those who are smart look down upon those who aren't. Heck, it might even make it so that people who are born to those that are in the lowest section will stay in the lowest section.


 
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Yeah, in America they're called "tracks", and we got rid of them a long time ago for good reason. It fucks with kids' minds, makes them start getting superiority and inferiority complexes early in life.


 
 
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<.<
Actually, I read a paper in my AP Lang class about how the U.S. education system was based on Prussia's and that sepaying individuals based on ability was one of the things they did.
IMO: yeah it's great not to deal with stupid people in class, but the long term effects of separating the stupid from the smart might create a class system where those who are smart look down upon those who aren't. Heck, it might even make it so that people who are born to those that are in the lowest section will stay in the lowest section.

Weeell the UK already has a Class system so I suppose that's why it's not really a huge deal <.<

Yeah, in America they're called "tracks", and we got rid of them a long time ago for good reason. It fucks with kids' minds, makes them start getting superiority and inferiority complexes early in life.

I don't think it worked like that over here, at least in my school it didn't <.<
Perhaps it wasn't as rigorous/enforced or something, but yeah...


 
 
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It would appear this thread is a good example of clouded bias <.<

Being in the middle of it and benefitting from it makes me view it differently >.>

But I swear on Shrek's holy name if anyone says Privilege I'll rip their tongue out .-.