has anyone in this thread actually met a native american or been on a reservation?

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 01:05:49 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on October 08, 2015, 01:02:54 PM

has anyone in this thread actually met a native american or been on a reservation?

"HAVE YOU MET ONE, BRO?! NO? THEN YOU DON'T KNOW!"

That's a pretty shitty standpoint.
 
Part of my family on my mothers side are natives who are in touch with their roots.

yeah they're shitty people who enjoy living just like they did 500 years ago

they have no intention to modernize or integrate

"George Washington sought to 'civilize' Southeastern American Indians, through programs overseen by the Indian Agent Benjamin Hawkins. He encouraged the Cherokee to abandon their communal land-tenure and settle on individual farmsteads, facilitated by the destruction of many American Indian towns during the American Revolutionary War. The deerskin trade brought white-tailed deer to the brink of extinction, and as pigs and cattle were introduced, they became the principal sources of meat. The government supplied the tribes with spinning wheels and cotton-seed, and men were taught to fence and plow the land, in contrast to their traditional division in which crop cultivation was woman's labor. Americans instructed the women in weaving. Eventually Hawkins helped them set up blacksmiths, gristmills and cotton plantations.

The Cherokee organized a national government under Principal Chiefs Little Turkey (1788–1801), Black Fox (1801–1811), and Pathkiller (1811–1827), all former warriors of Dragging Canoe. The 'Cherokee triumvirate' of James Vann and his protégés The Ridge and Charles R. Hicks advocated acculturation, formal education, and modern methods of farming. In 1801 they invited Moravian missionaries from North Carolina to teach Christianity and the 'arts of civilized life.' The Moravians and later Congregationalist missionaries ran boarding schools, and a select few students were educated at the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions school in Connecticut.

In 1806 a Federal Road from Savannah, Georgia to Knoxville, Tennessee was built through Cherokee land. Chief James Vann opened a tavern, inn and ferry across the Chattahoochee and built a cotton-plantation on a spur of the road from Athens, Georgia to Nashville. His son 'Rich Joe' Vann developed the plantation to 800 acres (3.2 km2), cultivated by 150 slaves. He exported cotton to England, and owned a steamboat on the Tennessee River.[31]

The Cherokee allied with the U.S. against the nativist and pro-British Red Stick faction of the Upper Creek in the Creek War during the War of 1812. Cherokee warriors led by Major Ridge played a major role in General Andrew Jackson's victory at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. Major Ridge moved his family to Rome, Georgia, where he built a substantial house, developed a large plantation and ran a ferry on the Oostanaula River. Although he never learned English, he sent his son and nephews to New England to be educated in mission schools. His interpreter and protégé Chief John Ross, the descendant of several generations of Cherokee women and Scots fur-traders, built a plantation and operated a trading firm and a ferry at Ross' Landing (Chattanooga, Tennessee). During this period, divisions arose between the acculturated elite and the great majority of Cherokee, who clung to traditional ways of life.

Around 1809 Sequoyah began developing a written form of the Cherokee language. He spoke no English, but his experiences as a silversmith dealing regularly with white settlers, and as a warrior at Horseshoe Bend, convinced him the Cherokee needed to develop writing. In 1821, he introduced Cherokee syllabary, the first written syllabic form of an American Indian language outside of Central America. Initially his innovation was opposed by both Cherokee traditionalists and white missionaries, who sought to encourage the use of English. When Sequoyah taught children to read and write with the syllabary, he reached the adults. By the 1820s, the Cherokee had a higher rate of literacy than the whites around them in Georgia.

In 1819, the Cherokee began holding council meetings at New Town, at the headwaters of the Oostanaula (near present-day Calhoun, Georgia). In November 1825, New Town became the capital of the Cherokee Nation, and was renamed New Echota, after the Overhill Cherokee principal town of Chota.[32] Sequoyah's syllabary was adopted. They had developed a police force, a judicial system, and a National Committee.

In 1827, the Cherokee Nation drafted a Constitution modeled on the United States, with executive, legislative and judicial branches and a system of checks and balances. The two-tiered legislature was led by Major Ridge and his son John Ridge. Convinced the tribe's survival required English-speaking leaders who could negotiate with the U.S., the legislature appointed John Ross as Principal Chief. A printing press was established at New Echota by the Vermont missionary Samuel Worcester and Major Ridge's nephew Elias Boudinot, who had taken the name of his white benefactor, a leader of the Continental Congress and New Jersey Congressman. They translated the Bible into Cherokee syllabary. Boudinot published the first edition of the bilingual 'Cherokee Phoenix,' the first American Indian newspaper, in February 1828.[33]"

With a unity made possible by the departure of the more traditional Cherokee to Arkansas, in less than 30 years the Cherokee underwent the most remarkable adaptation to white culture of any Native American people. By 1817 the clan system of government had been replaced by an elected tribal council. A new capital was established at New Echota in 1825, and a written constitution modeled after that of the United States was added two years later.

Many Cherokee became prosperous farmers with comfortable houses, beautiful cultivated fields, and large herds of livestock. Christian missionaries arrived by invitation, and Sequoia invented an alphabet that gave them a written language and overnight made most of the Cherokee literate. They published a newspaper, established a court system, and built schools. An inventory of Cherokee property in 1826 revealed: 1,560 black slaves. 22,000 cattle, 7,600 horses, 46,000 swine, 2,500 sheep, 762 looms, 2,488 spinning wheels, 172 wagons, 2,942 plows, 10 sawmills, 31 grist mills, 62 blacksmith shops, 8 cotton machines, 18 schools, and 18 ferries. Although the poor Cherokee still lived in simple log cabins, Chief John Ross had a $10,000 house designed by a Philadelphia architect. In fact, many Cherokee were more prosperous and 'civilized' than their increasingly envious white neighbors.

Although the leadership of the eastern Cherokee steadfastly maintained their independence and land base, they felt it was important to reach an accommodation with the Americans. They refused Tecumseh's requests for Indian unity in 1811, ignored a call for war from the Red Stick Creek in 1813, and then fought as American allies during the Creek War (1813-14). 800 Cherokee under Major Ridge were with Jackson's army at Horseshoe Bend in 1814, and according one account, a Cherokee warrior saved Jackson's life during the battle. If Jackson was grateful, he never allowed it to show. At the Fort Jackson Treaty ending the war (1814), Jackson demanded huge land cessions from both the Cherokee and Creek. As allies, the Cherokee must have been stunned at this treatment, and reluctantly agreed only after a series of four treaties signed during 1816 and 1817.

The Cherokee government afterwards became even more determined not to surrender any more land, but things were moving against them. In 1802 Cherokee land had been promised by the federal government to the state of Georgia which afterwards refused to recognize either the Cherokee Nation or its land claims. By 1822 Georgia was pressing Congress to end Cherokee title within its boundaries. $30,000 was eventually appropriated as payment but refused. Then bribery was attempted but exposed, and the Cherokee responded with a law prescribing death for anyone selling land to whites without permission.

With the election of Jackson as president in 1828, the Cherokee were in serious trouble. Gold was discovered that year on Cherokee land in northern Georgia, and miners swarmed in. Indian removal to west of the Mississippi had been suggested as early as 1802 by Thomas Jefferson and recommended by James Monroe in his final address to Congress in 1825. With Jackson's full support, the Indian Removal Act was introduced in Congress in 1829. There it met serious opposition from Senators Daniel Webster and Henry Clay who were able to delay passage until 1830. Meanwhile, Jackson refused to enforce the treaties which protected the Cherokee homeland from encroachment. During the two years following his election, Georgia unilaterally extended its laws to Cherokee territory, dividing up Cherokee lands by lottery, and stripping the Cherokee of legal protection. Georgia citizens were free to kill, burn, and steal. With the only alternative a war which would result in annihilation, John Ross decided to fight for his people's rights in the United States courts.

The Cherokee won both cases brought before the Supreme Court: Cherokee Nation vs Georgia (1831) and Worcester vs Georgia(1832), but the legal victories were useless. Jackson's answer: "Justice Marshall has made his decision. Let him enforce it." Without federal interference, Georgia and Tennessee began a reign of terror using arrest, murder and arson against the Cherokee. Ross was arrested, and the offices of the Cherokee Phoenix burned in May, 1834. The mansion of the wealthiest Cherokee, Joseph Vann, was confiscated by the Georgia militia, and the Moravian mission and school was converted into a militia headquarters. When Ross travelled to Washington to protest, Jackson refused to see him. Instead overtures were made to Major Ridge, his son John Ridge, and nephew Elias Boudinot (Buck Oowatie), editor of the Phoenix (Cherokee newspaper). The hopelessness of the situation finally convinced these men to sign the Treaty of New Echota (December, 1835) surrendering the Cherokee Nation's homeland in exchange for $5,000,000, seven million acres in Oklahoma, and an agreement to remove within two years.

Known as the Treaty Party (Ridgites), only 350 of 17,000 Cherokee actually endorsed the agreement. Threatened by violence from their own people, they and 2,000 family members quickly gathered their property and left for Oklahoma. The treaty was clearly a fraud, and a petition of protest with 16,000 Cherokee signatures was dispatched to Washington to halt ratification. After violent debate, Jackson succeeded in pushing it through the Senate during May by the margin of a single vote. The Cherokee Nation was doomed. For the next two years, Ross tried every political and legal means to stop the removal, but failed. When the deadline arrived in May, 1838, 7,000 soldiers under General Winfield Scott (virtually the entire American Army) moved into the Cherokee homeland. The Cherokee found that their reward for 'taking the white manÕs road' was to be driven from their homes at gunpoint. It was the beginning of the Nunadautsun't or 'the trail where we cried.' History would call it the Trail of Tears.

Quote from: Azumarill on October 08, 2015, 01:23:20 PM

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on October 08, 2015, 11:02:12 AM

I just really hate the pity parade circle jerk for Native Americans

Considering based Andrew Jackson (Trail of Tears, and who for some reason is on the $20 bill when he hated the National Bank. Talk about irony) and "Manifest Destiny" were two things that essentially drove the Natives away and slaughtered them? Yeah I think it's pretty bad. They honestly DESERVE some pity, and while I'm not here going "it's da white mans fault now! Be ashamed!!!", I think we should all be aware of the tragedies and misdeeds our ancestors did.

It's really crazy how we basically almost wiped an entire culture off the face of the map by killing, and forcefully relocating them. There is no positive spin on it by saying "well we culturally uplifted them" or "they weren't going places anyway".

It's important to note that the history of Native Americans post-"discovery" is not a story of death and decline, but rather of perseverance

I suppose that's looking at it half full, but it's still a morbid topic none the less. I just think trying to put a positive spin on their death and forceful removal is nothing shy of trying to cover up the misdeeds that happened. You're seeing the same thing try to happen in history books in America with slavery.

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 01:04:53 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 08, 2015, 12:58:52 PM

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on October 08, 2015, 11:02:12 AM

I just really hate the pity parade circle jerk for Native Americans

Considering based Andrew Jackson (Trail of Tears, and who for some reason is on the $20 bill when he hated the National Bank. Talk about irony) and "Manifest Destiny" were two things that essentially drove the Natives away and slaughtered them? Yeah I think it's pretty bad. They honestly DESERVE some pity, and while I'm not here going "it's da white mans fault now! Be ashamed!!!", I think we should all be aware of the tragedies and misdeeds our ancestors did.

It's really crazy how we basically almost wiped an entire culture off the face of the map by killing, and forcefully relocating them. There is no positive spin on it by saying "well we culturally uplifted them" or "they weren't going places anyway".

who's this we motherfucker

Were you there? Did you participate?

I say "we" as in WE as American's should be aware of our past and our history and not try to over glorify everything. You know the whole saying "those who don't know history" blah blah. As a history nerd, I feel you should always strive to tell the truth about events that happened, be it good or bad.

what are you some kind of christfag? Fuck that original sin bullshit.

Yes, colonists basically destroyed Native Americans. To call it genocide is a stretch, though. Genocide implies a goal or organized action. This was just the result of one culture being destroyed by a dominant intruding culture. It's happened shitloads of times throughout history.

But just like we don't ask modern Hungarians to apologize for the actions of the Huns, or Danes to apologize for viking raids on Britain, we as Americans today really shouldn't be apologizing for shit that happened centuries before we were even concieved.

You do not bear responsibility for the actions of your ancestors, who may not have even made violent contact with Natives anyway.

Should the US government apologize for actions it took specifically? Absolutely.
Should we as Americans? No. We weren't there and we really have no right to speak for our long-dead ancestors.

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 01:04:53 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 08, 2015, 12:58:52 PM

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on October 08, 2015, 11:02:12 AM

I just really hate the pity parade circle jerk for Native Americans

Considering based Andrew Jackson (Trail of Tears, and who for some reason is on the $20 bill when he hated the National Bank. Talk about irony) and "Manifest Destiny" were two things that essentially drove the Natives away and slaughtered them? Yeah I think it's pretty bad. They honestly DESERVE some pity, and while I'm not here going "it's da white mans fault now! Be ashamed!!!", I think we should all be aware of the tragedies and misdeeds our ancestors did.

It's really crazy how we basically almost wiped an entire culture off the face of the map by killing, and forcefully relocating them. There is no positive spin on it by saying "well we culturally uplifted them" or "they weren't going places anyway".

who's this we motherfucker

Were you there? Did you participate?

I say "we" as in WE as American's should be aware of our past and our history and not try to over glorify everything. You know the whole saying "those who don't know history" blah blah. As a history nerd, I feel you should always strive to tell the truth about events that happened, be it good or bad.

what are you some kind of christfag? Fuck that original sin bullshit.

Yes, colonists basically destroyed Native Americans. To call it genocide is a stretch, though. Genocide implies a goal or organized action. This was just the result of one culture being destroyed by a dominant intruding culture. It's happened shitloads of times throughout history.

But just like we don't ask modern Hungarians to apologize for the actions of the Huns, or Danes to apologize for viking raids on Britain, we as Americans today really shouldn't be apologizing for shit that happened centuries before we were even concieved.

You do not bear responsibility for the actions of your ancestors, who may not have even made violent contact with Natives anyway.

Should the US government apologize for actions it took specifically? Absolutely.
Should we as Americans? No. We weren't there and we really have no right to speak for our long-dead ancestors.

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 02:38:18 PM

I never said we should apologize, in fact I specifically said that in one post. I simply said we should remember it as it happened. Learn to understand the points I am making please.

Colombus himself didn't even kill anyone.

More recent views of Columbus have tended to be much more critical.[104][105][106] The combined effects of Columbus' forced labor regime, war, and slaughter resulted in the near-total eradication of 98% of the native Taino of Hispaniola.[107] De las Casas records that when he first came to Hispaniola in 1508, "there were 60,000 people living on this island, including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery, and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this? I myself writing it as a knowledgeable eyewitness can hardly believe it...."[107]

The native Taino people of the island were systematically enslaved via the encomienda system implemented by Columbus,[108] which resembled a feudal system in Medieval Europe.[109]

Disease played a significant role in the destruction of the natives; however there is no record of any massive smallpox epidemic in the Antilles until 25 years after the arrival of Columbus; rather the natives' numbers declined due to extreme overwork, other diseases, and a loss of will to live after the destruction of their culture by the invaders. When the first pandemic finally struck in 1519 it wiped out much of the remaining native population.[110][111] According to the historian Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes by 1548, 56 years after Columbus landed, fewer than five hundred Taino were left on the island.[112]

Columbus' treatment of the Hispaniola natives was even worse; his soldiers raped, killed, and enslaved with impunity at every landing. When Columbus fell ill in 1495, soldiers were reported to have gone on a rampage, slaughtering 50,000 natives. Upon his recovery, Columbus organized his troops' efforts, forming a squadron of several hundred heavily armed men and more than twenty attack dogs. The men tore across the land, killing thousands of sick and unarmed natives. Soldiers would use their captives for sword practice, attempting to decapitate them or cut them in half with a single blow.[113]

The historian Howard Zinn writes that Columbus spearheaded a massive slave trade; in 1495 his men captured in a single raid 1500 Arawak men, women, and children. When he shipped five hundred of the slaves to Spain, 40% died en route.[46] Historian James W. Loewen asserts that "Columbus not only sent the first slaves across the Atlantic, he probably sent more slaves – about five thousand – than any other individual... other nations rushed to emulate Columbus."[114]

When slaves held in captivity began to die at high rates, Columbus switched to a different system of forced labor: he ordered all natives over the age of thirteen to collect a specified amount (one hawk's bell full) of gold powder every three months. Natives who brought the amount were given a copper token to hang around their necks, and those found without tokens had their hands amputated and were left to bleed to death.[46][115]

The Arawaks attempted to fight back against Columbus's men but lacked their armor, guns, swords, and horses. When taken prisoner, they were hanged or burned to death. Desperation led to mass suicides and infanticide among the natives. In just two years under Columbus' governorship more than half of the 250,000 Arawaks in Haiti were dead.[46] The main cause for the depopulation was disease followed by other causes such as warfare and harsh enslavement. [116] [117] [118]

Samuel Eliot Morison, a Harvard historian and author of a multivolume biography on Columbus writes, "The cruel policy initiated by Columbus and pursued by his successors resulted in complete genocide."[119] Loewen laments that while "Haiti under the Spanish is one of the primary instances of genocide in all human history", only one major history text he reviewed mentions Columbus' role in it.[114]

There is evidence that the men of the first voyage also brought syphilis from the New World to Europe.[120] Many of the crew members who served on this voyage later joined the army of King Charles VIII in his invasion of Italy in 1495. After the victory, Charles' largely mercenary army returned to their respective homes, thereby spreading "the Great Pox" across Europe and triggering the deaths of more than five million people.[121]

Quote from: Azumarill on October 08, 2015, 02:41:45 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 08, 2015, 02:36:07 PM

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 01:04:53 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 08, 2015, 12:58:52 PM

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on October 08, 2015, 11:02:12 AM

I just really hate the pity parade circle jerk for Native Americans

Considering based Andrew Jackson (Trail of Tears, and who for some reason is on the $20 bill when he hated the National Bank. Talk about irony) and "Manifest Destiny" were two things that essentially drove the Natives away and slaughtered them? Yeah I think it's pretty bad. They honestly DESERVE some pity, and while I'm not here going "it's da white mans fault now! Be ashamed!!!", I think we should all be aware of the tragedies and misdeeds our ancestors did.

It's really crazy how we basically almost wiped an entire culture off the face of the map by killing, and forcefully relocating them. There is no positive spin on it by saying "well we culturally uplifted them" or "they weren't going places anyway".

who's this we motherfucker

Were you there? Did you participate?

I say "we" as in WE as American's should be aware of our past and our history and not try to over glorify everything. You know the whole saying "those who don't know history" blah blah. As a history nerd, I feel you should always strive to tell the truth about events that happened, be it good or bad.

what are you some kind of christfag? Fuck that original sin bullshit.

Yes, colonists basically destroyed Native Americans. To call it genocide is a stretch, though. Genocide implies a goal or organized action. This was just the result of one culture being destroyed by a dominant intruding culture. It's happened shitloads of times throughout history.

But just like we don't ask modern Hungarians to apologize for the actions of the Huns, or Danes to apologize for viking raids on Britain, we as Americans today really shouldn't be apologizing for shit that happened centuries before we were even concieved.

You do not bear responsibility for the actions of your ancestors, who may not have even made violent contact with Natives anyway.

Should the US government apologize for actions it took specifically? Absolutely.
Should we as Americans? No. We weren't there and we really have no right to speak for our long-dead ancestors.

We can't accurately label every single action performed by colonists as genocide, but we can acknowledge that genocide did occur. That's just silly to deny.

There was no major concerted effort to wipe out the natives as far as I know.

has anyone in this thread actually met a native american or been on a reservation?

Quote from: Azumarill on October 08, 2015, 02:46:45 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 08, 2015, 02:41:56 PM

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 02:38:18 PM

I never said we should apologize, in fact I specifically said that in one post. I simply said we should remember it as it happened. Learn to understand the points I am making please.

Colombus himself didn't even kill anyone.

Maybe not directly, but he was responsible for a horrifying trail of blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#Eradication_of_the_natives_of_Hispaniola

Quote

More recent views of Columbus have tended to be much more critical.[104][105][106] The combined effects of Columbus' forced labor regime, war, and slaughter resulted in the near-total eradication of 98% of the native Taino of Hispaniola.[107] De las Casas records that when he first came to Hispaniola in 1508, "there were 60,000 people living on this island, including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery, and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this? I myself writing it as a knowledgeable eyewitness can hardly believe it...."[107]

The native Taino people of the island were systematically enslaved via the encomienda system implemented by Columbus,[108] which resembled a feudal system in Medieval Europe.[109]

Disease played a significant role in the destruction of the natives; however there is no record of any massive smallpox epidemic in the Antilles until 25 years after the arrival of Columbus; rather the natives' numbers declined due to extreme overwork, other diseases, and a loss of will to live after the destruction of their culture by the invaders. When the first pandemic finally struck in 1519 it wiped out much of the remaining native population.[110][111] According to the historian Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes by 1548, 56 years after Columbus landed, fewer than five hundred Taino were left on the island.[112]

Columbus' treatment of the Hispaniola natives was even worse; his soldiers raped, killed, and enslaved with impunity at every landing. When Columbus fell ill in 1495, soldiers were reported to have gone on a rampage, slaughtering 50,000 natives. Upon his recovery, Columbus organized his troops' efforts, forming a squadron of several hundred heavily armed men and more than twenty attack dogs. The men tore across the land, killing thousands of sick and unarmed natives. Soldiers would use their captives for sword practice, attempting to decapitate them or cut them in half with a single blow.[113]

The historian Howard Zinn writes that Columbus spearheaded a massive slave trade; in 1495 his men captured in a single raid 1500 Arawak men, women, and children. When he shipped five hundred of the slaves to Spain, 40% died en route.[46] Historian James W. Loewen asserts that "Columbus not only sent the first slaves across the Atlantic, he probably sent more slaves – about five thousand – than any other individual... other nations rushed to emulate Columbus."[114]

When slaves held in captivity began to die at high rates, Columbus switched to a different system of forced labor: he ordered all natives over the age of thirteen to collect a specified amount (one hawk's bell full) of gold powder every three months. Natives who brought the amount were given a copper token to hang around their necks, and those found without tokens had their hands amputated and were left to bleed to death.[46][115]

The Arawaks attempted to fight back against Columbus's men but lacked their armor, guns, swords, and horses. When taken prisoner, they were hanged or burned to death. Desperation led to mass suicides and infanticide among the natives. In just two years under Columbus' governorship more than half of the 250,000 Arawaks in Haiti were dead.[46] The main cause for the depopulation was disease followed by other causes such as warfare and harsh enslavement. [116] [117] [118]

Samuel Eliot Morison, a Harvard historian and author of a multivolume biography on Columbus writes, "The cruel policy initiated by Columbus and pursued by his successors resulted in complete genocide."[119] Loewen laments that while "Haiti under the Spanish is one of the primary instances of genocide in all human history", only one major history text he reviewed mentions Columbus' role in it.[114]

There is evidence that the men of the first voyage also brought syphilis from the New World to Europe.[120] Many of the crew members who served on this voyage later joined the army of King Charles VIII in his invasion of Italy in 1495. After the victory, Charles' largely mercenary army returned to their respective homes, thereby spreading "the Great Pox" across Europe and triggering the deaths of more than five million people.[121]

JESUS CHRIST

FUCK SPANIARDS