re: assumption of guilt for sexual assault, rape, and abuse

WarTurkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Many on the grassroots Left have shifted towards a position of always -- barring extreme absurdity -- siding with an accuser making claims of sexual assault, particularly when that accuser is a woman (or a POC), and even more so when the accused assailant is a celebrity. A recent example, and why I bring this up now, involves a member of PWR BTTM, and previously another similar complaint against a member of Swans.

The point of this inherent trust in the supposed victim is to help counter the positions of power that celebrities, white people, and men have over others. The validity of that power is not the point of this thread. What I'd ask is if you think it's a good thing to trust and be responsive to victims' claims, and whether you see that as contrary to the principle of innocence until guilt is proven, or if it's possible to not only support a supposed victim and the accused person. Is the act of vocally trusting the victim's claim potentially defamatory for the accused, and does that even matter?



Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Accusations of rape should always be taken seriously, yes. Especially if the accusation has been levied shortly after the crime has taken place.

The problem with rape is that it's such an abysmally difficult crime to prove in a court of law, and so it helps if the accuser wastes little time to make the claim. That's why I always take these Billy Cosby etc accusations with a grain of salt. You want to take him to court thirty years after this alleged crime now that he's in a position of extreme wealth and success? Hm, funny that.

Tangential points aside, we should always ensure that an accusation is given its due credence in a court of law, but an accusation itself is not proof. We need the foundations of innocent until proven guilty to sift through the bullshit, because if we just take someone's word at face value without even properly scrutinizing it then you're only circumventing the problem in a different direction.


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
Well, like Mordo said, crimes like these can be difficult to prove in court. There are many cases where rapists get away with their crimes, and also where innocent people are wrongly convicted.

It's messed up, but I don't think we should really be politicizing rape by accusing "the left" or "the right" about having certain notions about rape. But I do get your point, rape (especially when it's a man raping a woman) tends to be a "guilty until proven innocent" type of deal.


WarTurkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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I don't think we should really be politicizing rape by accusing "the left" or "the right" about having certain notions about rape.

I didn't really mean to. I often use this forum as a sounding board for the extremely liberal ideas of some of my friends.


maverick | Legendary Invincible!
 
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Automatically believing the victim in every circumstance would only be a valid strategy if false testimonies never happened, which isn't the case. As with every other crime, it should be investigated and proven in court before convicting anyone.


Ian | Mythic Invincible!
 
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In One are Twelve.
Innocent until proven guilty should trump any other belief on the matter. Is it fucked up that it leads to situations where a criminal gets away with something like that? Absolutely, but it's just as disgusting to falsely claim someone did something like rape when there's no evidence to suggest it.


 
Flee
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There's not much left to be said.

Yes, it's important to trust supposed victims in the sense that their claims must be taken seriously and treated with due respect. No, this does not violate the presumption of innocence when it does not replace actual evidence. Yes, it is possible to support both sides during this process. And yes, this can be potentially defamatory which is why I disagree with the (typically American) approach of publicizing these things in the earliest stages of the investigation.

I've been in courts and prisons and have seen how much of a mess this can be. More often than not, it's an absolute hell to prove. If the victim waits too long, questions arise about the motives and much of the possible evidence has likely disappeared at that point. And even if the victim doesn't wait, it's still hard to prove as the other party can easily pose that the sex was consensual in absence of hard evidence of violence or lack of consent, making it a simple "he said she said" situation.

Take claims seriously and investigate appropriately, but don't convict based on an accusation alone. And exercise diligence with the information disclosed to the public during an ongoing investigation.
Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 04:11:10 AM by Flee


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NK was here. Everything I post is dead serious, no jokes.
I came here from b.net after a few Floods invited me. None of them post on either b.net nor here anymore, which is sad. I was still active on b.net until for some bizarre reason, b.net admins locked out people who have not played Destiny. Even if you wanted to post on the offtopic section. After that, I fully moved here and have not returned to b.net since.
They were probably asking for it anyway.

OT: I don't even know why they are pushing this "Trust the victim!", was rape not taken seriously in the developed world already?


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They were probably asking for it anyway.

OT: I don't even know why they are pushing this "Trust the victim!", was rape not taken seriously in the developed world already?

It just gets the uninformed and ignorant riled up because it implies that it was.

Or it's because rapes were previously left unreported because the victim would get negativity thrown their way (slut-shaming or what have you), or the suspected rapist was someone of power or fame and would've been laughed or bribed out of court (See Jimmy Saville).

Ironically I'd say it got worse when stuff like this came up where it's quoted;
Quote
Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time.

which has been warped into something like this, where people believe you can revoke consent hours/days after the fact and most people wouldn't take that seriously.
Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 12:24:58 PM by Môr-ladron


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Long live NoNolesNeckin.

Ya fuckin' ganderneck.
Always look into serious claims such as those of sexual assault but, for god's sake, innocent until proven guilty.

Such serious claims absolutely have the potential to destroy someone's social standing. People need to be weary of that and understand that there are people out there with malicious intentions that play themselves as a victim.


 
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What's your damage, Heather?
People accused of rape should always be looked at with suspicion. There's no reason for a young girl to lie about something so personal and shamed by society.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
People accused of rape should always be looked at with suspicion. There's no reason for a young girl to lie about something so personal and shamed by society.
Yet the still do.


 
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You will find out who you are not a thousand times, before you ever discover who you are. I hope you find peace in yourself and learn to love instead of hate.
People accused of rape should always be looked at with suspicion. There's no reason for a young girl to lie about something so personal and shamed by society.
How else does daddy's little princess get attention?