Quote from: Verbatim on April 21, 2016, 12:57:15 PM>my penis is cleaner than yours>my penis is less likely to get an infection than yoursAll of the other points aside, these things are simply untrue or very heavily contested.Honestly, you actually sound a bit butthurt here, which I find very surprising. These people are already born and are being born every few seconds, that's a reality. So if we for one second ignore your "but no consent to birth, anti-natalism go" argument (that really isn't too relevant here in the first place), I really don't see how you can be opposed to this. The ultimate point of your philosophy which I've seen time and time again is that "suffering is bad, avoiding suffering is good". Well, an infant comes into existence. It's there. Nothing to do about that, you can't shove it back and hope it just goes away at this point. That is the reality of things and no matter how loud someone screams ANTINATALISM, that isn't going to change. From my perspective, the only logical step forward in your philosophy would be to minimize pain and suffering for the existing situation. Make things as close to perfection as possible for all living things while advocating others not to conceive more people. So in what possible way could you justify taking this baby, strapping it to a table, crushing and stretching one of its most sensitive body parts to beyond its breaking point and then cutting it off for absolutely no real reason whatsoever? Studies on his have shown that circumcision is the single most painful neo-natal procedure that is done on infants. It impairs maternal bonding, it has been known to literally make the baby turn blue because it's running out of oxygen due to how hard it's crying and there are even reports of infants falling in catatonic shock because they simply can't handle the pain. It has a myriad of possible side effects and complications that can occur both during the procedure and within the months afterwards. So tell me, how is this justifiable? If for one second you actually acknowledge the reality that babies are being born right this very second and will continue doing so, even though antinatalism is, according to you, the best philosophy and that "lol lack of consent with something like this is meaningless compared to the lack of consent to life" does not change anything about this fact. How can you, the single most driven and spirited proponent of "suffering is intrinsically bad and should be avoided at all costs" I've ever met, sit here and shrug this off because of anecdotal bullshit like "hey it happened to me but I'm fine now"? This is an extremely invasive and painful procedure. It is, by definition, genital mutilation. Not a single national medical organization in the world suggests it to be done routinely and literally all but one of them say that the benefits most definitely do NOT outweigh the risks and downsides. This isn't a vaccination, where you give a child a tiny prick of pain to prevent much worse, nor is it a necessary procedure to address genuine and serious medical concerns. It is an entirely cosmetic, painful and very often harmful procedure on non-consenting humans. I'm not an expert on antinatalism, but from what I've come to understand its primary argument is that life is suffering, suffering is bad and that suffering should as such be avoided. It's why you're a vegan too, as to not make living creatures suffer any more than they have to. I may be wrong here, but seems to me like it's pretty solid so far. Yet, despite all of this, you're so willing to not condemn a painful and useless procedure that inflicts a tremendous amount of pain on living and born human beings. And I'm not even wondering why you're not here to "rally for the cause" or even care a lot about this issue. Those things take time and effort, and there's so much shit going on that I understand this doesn't even come close to being a priority. But for you to not even condemn it? For you to simply mock those who do care about the painful genital mutilation of newborns and dismiss valid concerns because "le wormdicks mad cuz my peen is the best" and other salty and generally wrong reasons? That I really don't understand. Sure, it's relatively minor and sure, it pales in comparison to the lack of consent to being born. But regardless of that, it does cause a shit ton of pain, problems, complications and suffering for literally tens of thousands of infants and people through life. So how can you not even think it shouldn't take place as a way to reduce the amount of suffering in the world?Really, the only conclusion I can make here based on what I've said above and the pretty salty nature of your post is that you are, to some extent, actually butthurt over this. Not that I suspect you'd even admit it if it was the case, but I really don't see any other explanation for your hostile and salty post deflecting the whole point. And you really shouldn't be. No one's calling you out or trying to say you're beneath others. You don't have to defend yourself by trying to make others feel bad.
>my penis is cleaner than yours>my penis is less likely to get an infection than yours
Quote from: Mordo on April 21, 2016, 07:28:32 PMQuote from: Verbatim on April 21, 2016, 05:52:25 PMQuote from: challengerX on April 21, 2016, 05:38:18 PMHoly shit Verbatim just got murdered.No, not really at all.Uh, you kinda did 2bh.No, not really at all.I'll shred everything apart later.
Quote from: Verbatim on April 21, 2016, 05:52:25 PMQuote from: challengerX on April 21, 2016, 05:38:18 PMHoly shit Verbatim just got murdered.No, not really at all.Uh, you kinda did 2bh.
Quote from: challengerX on April 21, 2016, 05:38:18 PMHoly shit Verbatim just got murdered.No, not really at all.
Holy shit Verbatim just got murdered.
>All these fallaciesLet's cut the shit and stop avoiding the elephant in the room, there is no place for this practice in civilized society. I'm on mobile so I can't link it, but look up a video on YouTube called Child Circumcision, an Elephant in the hospital. Circumcision is nothing short of mutilation.
I guess we should stop vaccinating our kids until they're old enough to make an informed decision about it.And yes, some vaccinations are completely unnecessary and can be held off until the kid is an adult.I love how now one gives a shit about consent and the right to your own body until this one issue comes up.
Quote from: Verbatim on April 21, 2016, 07:30:56 PMQuote from: Mordo on April 21, 2016, 07:28:32 PMQuote from: Verbatim on April 21, 2016, 05:52:25 PMQuote from: challengerX on April 21, 2016, 05:38:18 PMHoly shit Verbatim just got murdered.No, not really at all.Uh, you kinda did 2bh.No, not really at all.I'll shred everything apart later.
Quote from: ALIE on April 21, 2016, 08:22:30 PMI guess we should stop vaccinating our kids until they're old enough to make an informed decision about it.And yes, some vaccinations are completely unnecessary and can be held off until the kid is an adult.I love how now one gives a shit about consent and the right to your own body until this one issue comes up.You have a right to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't affect anyone. Vaccinations are a matter of public health and disease control. Circumcision is a medically unnecessary and gruesome procedure that inflicts excruciating pain on an infant. When what you're doing affects other people it becomes an issue.
Quote from: CIS on April 22, 2016, 12:41:54 AMQuote from: ALIE on April 21, 2016, 08:22:30 PMI guess we should stop vaccinating our kids until they're old enough to make an informed decision about it.And yes, some vaccinations are completely unnecessary and can be held off until the kid is an adult.I love how now one gives a shit about consent and the right to your own body until this one issue comes up.You have a right to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't affect anyone. Vaccinations are a matter of public health and disease control. Circumcision is a medically unnecessary and gruesome procedure that inflicts excruciating pain on an infant. When what you're doing affects other people it becomes an issue.First of all, the flu vaccine is 100% unneccesary and shouldnt be taken by anyone. Secondly, there's no better time in a person's life to be circumsized than right after birth. It's unneccesary, but objectively better than not getting the procedure. The same can't be said for mandatory flu shots.
Quote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 01:42:29 AMQuote from: CIS on April 22, 2016, 12:41:54 AMQuote from: ALIE on April 21, 2016, 08:22:30 PMI guess we should stop vaccinating our kids until they're old enough to make an informed decision about it.And yes, some vaccinations are completely unnecessary and can be held off until the kid is an adult.I love how now one gives a shit about consent and the right to your own body until this one issue comes up.You have a right to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't affect anyone. Vaccinations are a matter of public health and disease control. Circumcision is a medically unnecessary and gruesome procedure that inflicts excruciating pain on an infant. When what you're doing affects other people it becomes an issue.First of all, the flu vaccine is 100% unneccesary and shouldnt be taken by anyone. Secondly, there's no better time in a person's life to be circumsized than right after birth. It's unneccesary, but objectively better than not getting the procedure. The same can't be said for mandatory flu shots.I'm sorry what? Nothing you said in this post is remotely true.
Quote from: LC on April 22, 2016, 01:45:24 AMQuote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 01:42:29 AMQuote from: CIS on April 22, 2016, 12:41:54 AMQuote from: ALIE on April 21, 2016, 08:22:30 PMI guess we should stop vaccinating our kids until they're old enough to make an informed decision about it.And yes, some vaccinations are completely unnecessary and can be held off until the kid is an adult.I love how now one gives a shit about consent and the right to your own body until this one issue comes up.You have a right to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't affect anyone. Vaccinations are a matter of public health and disease control. Circumcision is a medically unnecessary and gruesome procedure that inflicts excruciating pain on an infant. When what you're doing affects other people it becomes an issue.First of all, the flu vaccine is 100% unneccesary and shouldnt be taken by anyone. Secondly, there's no better time in a person's life to be circumsized than right after birth. It's unneccesary, but objectively better than not getting the procedure. The same can't be said for mandatory flu shots.I'm sorry what? Nothing you said in this post is remotely true.The flu vaccine is 100% unnecessary. I haven't gotten it in years.
JesusIt's insane how people like Verbatim and Second do a complete 180 on their views and resort to meme tier retorts and schoolyard insults. You guys are REALLY insecure about your dicks lol.
When a rat knows death is imminent, they desperately look for any hole they can fit into.
Quote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 04:37:01 AMQuote from: challengerX on April 22, 2016, 04:35:00 AMWhen a rat knows death is imminent, they desperately look for any hole they can fit into.When someone gets accused of something they didn't do, they refute it.LOL Sure you didn't. What I said is exactly what you're doing. You know you're wrong, so instead of addressing the actual issue, you're going to argue the only you can argue, that you haven't "insulted" anyone. Stay on topic. You and Verbatim for pretending to be so moral, abandon all these ideals and say atrocious things like "they won't remember the pain".
Quote from: challengerX on April 22, 2016, 04:35:00 AMWhen a rat knows death is imminent, they desperately look for any hole they can fit into.When someone gets accused of something they didn't do, they refute it.
Quote from: ALIE on April 21, 2016, 08:22:30 PMI guess we should stop vaccinating our kids until they're old enough to make an informed decision about it.Terrible analogy to make an even more terrible point. One is a routine prick of a needle for major public health issues that'll stop the child from potentially contracting and spreading serious diseases. It's a tiny sting that leaves no lasting pain, has virtually no possible complications and has benefits that drastically outweigh the downsides. The other is an almost entirely cosmetic and invasive surgery. It is by definition genital mutilation and is an extremely painful, brutal and unnecessary procedure with little to no benefits and a whole lot of possible downsides and complications. Not a single official medical health organization in the world thinks it should be done routinely and all but one (heavily biased and contested) aside, they unanimously claim that the benefits do not even come close to outweighing the cons.QuoteI love how now one gives a shit about consent and the right to your own body until this one issue comes up.That is because this is almost no different from tattooing your child. The issue of consent does not come up with most medical procedures because there is good reason to not listen to what the child has to say, as the benefits drastically outweigh the downsides or the procedure is simply necessary to treat the chlid. But here, you're subjecting an infant to an extremely painful, unnecessary and irreversible procedure for almost entirely cosmetic or religious reasons. Calling it child abuse is rather strong, but there's a point to it.
I guess we should stop vaccinating our kids until they're old enough to make an informed decision about it.
I love how now one gives a shit about consent and the right to your own body until this one issue comes up.
Quote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 04:56:40 AMQuote from: challengerX on April 22, 2016, 04:50:23 AMQuote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 04:37:01 AMQuote from: challengerX on April 22, 2016, 04:35:00 AMWhen a rat knows death is imminent, they desperately look for any hole they can fit into.When someone gets accused of something they didn't do, they refute it.LOL Sure you didn't. What I said is exactly what you're doing. You know you're wrong, so instead of addressing the actual issue, you're going to argue the only you can argue, that you haven't "insulted" anyone. Stay on topic. You and Verbatim for pretending to be so moral, abandon all these ideals and say atrocious things like "they won't remember the pain". You said I insulted someoneI didn'tyou liedsimple as thatLOOOOOOOOOOOOLYeah, I'm not doing this with you. I was referring to Verbatim when I said insults and to both of you about how you guys just dropped any morals you pretended to have because you're insecure about dicks. Why are you for torturing infants?
Quote from: challengerX on April 22, 2016, 04:50:23 AMQuote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 04:37:01 AMQuote from: challengerX on April 22, 2016, 04:35:00 AMWhen a rat knows death is imminent, they desperately look for any hole they can fit into.When someone gets accused of something they didn't do, they refute it.LOL Sure you didn't. What I said is exactly what you're doing. You know you're wrong, so instead of addressing the actual issue, you're going to argue the only you can argue, that you haven't "insulted" anyone. Stay on topic. You and Verbatim for pretending to be so moral, abandon all these ideals and say atrocious things like "they won't remember the pain". You said I insulted someoneI didn'tyou liedsimple as that
Quote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 05:12:21 AMMentally harm the infant? What the hell?https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201501/circumcision-s-psychological-damageQuoteWe've already established that regardless of the supposed brutalityThere's nothing "supposed" about the brutality. I'd link what exactly happens but it's honestly one of the few things I can't stomach. You know, because I was brought up being taught that torturing babies is wrong. Quoteof the process, the infant remembers nothing.So like Flee said, we can do all sorts of disgusting and unnecessary shit because the infant won't remember it?QuotePhysically "harm" is debatable.No, it isn't. Babies pass out from the pain. QuoteThere's no long term effects over circumcision, effects that would definitely be prominent if the infant is really being tortured.Yeah there are. This is basic shit. Do a google search. QuoteYou're making it sound like the doctor goes down there with a carrot peeler. It's much more surgical than that.LOL It really isn't as "surgical" as you think. I love how you're using all these words to mask genital mutilation. QuoteAnd you have to be kidding. The flu vaccine has killed more people than it's saved, its completely unneccesary for children and adults alike.HAHAHAHA ARE YOU FUCKING INSANEQuoteI'm not changing the subject, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. Most people who make a big deal over circumcision turn a blind eye to other more blatant and important consent-violating norms.No they don't. And neither do I. Excuse me if I find genital torture on INFANTS a priority. This is the type of shit we condemn in 3rd world countries but since it's a Jewish thing it's ok. Fucking hypocrites.
Mentally harm the infant? What the hell?
We've already established that regardless of the supposed brutality
of the process, the infant remembers nothing.
Physically "harm" is debatable.
There's no long term effects over circumcision, effects that would definitely be prominent if the infant is really being tortured.
You're making it sound like the doctor goes down there with a carrot peeler. It's much more surgical than that.
And you have to be kidding. The flu vaccine has killed more people than it's saved, its completely unneccesary for children and adults alike.
I'm not changing the subject, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. Most people who make a big deal over circumcision turn a blind eye to other more blatant and important consent-violating norms.
Quote from: ALIE on April 22, 2016, 05:00:14 AMThe flu vaccine is hardly a broad societal concern, it's more or less there for convenience, and far from necessary.I'm not talking about flu vaccines. I don't know if I ever got one myself. I figured this was about actually important vaccinations for things like polio, pox, hep A/B and such. QuoteThe reason we give newborns circumcisions is that they're even worse to perform on an adult.Which is completely irrelevant. You would have a point if we HAD to be circumcised at one point in our life, or even if a large portion of men would later be forced to be circumcised or face a lot worse. This absolutely isn't the case, as perfectly illustrated by extremely low circumcision rates at later ages in pretty much the entirety of the developed world outside of the US, and by the lack of higher UTI / penile cancer / HIV rates in those countries compared to the US. I'd agree you with if there was any reason at all to assume men HAVE to be circumcised at one point in their lives or if there even existed compelling evidence to suggest a large portion of them would have to be. In that case, it would be better to perform it on infants. But that isn't so. And as I'm sure almost every logical and reasonable person would agree with, the choice between A: excruciating pain as an infant and B: excruciating pain never is an easy one.QuoteCircumcisions and tattoos aren't nearly the same, one actually serves a puroose beyond looks. Uncircumsized penises are far easier to get dirty and infected, tattoos have no purpose whatsoever. Terrible analogy.That is factually incorrect. The dirtier part is a non-issue given access to clean running water (which I assume we all do) and the "far easier to get infected" part is rejected by most of the medical community, with numerous studies actually finding that circumcisions increase the odds of those complications occuring during infancy. So no, it doesn't serve a purpose. But even if I humor your argument, it still falls short. Say you're right and it is dirtier and easier to get infected. This would justify cutting it off, right? Well, why don't we cut off some other parts too? Plenty of body parts we don't need and that pose significant risks. I mean, why not cut off earlobes or a few unimportant toes? They can get dirty, they can get cut, they can infect. You can break the bones in your toe and there's a myriad of possible things that could go wrong with it. Plus, it really doesn't serve that much of a purpose anyways. Why not just cut it off? Why not open the baby up and take out the appendix while we're at it. Or your teeth. Sure, it's a bit of an inconvenience not being able to eat solid foods anymore, but so what? Plenty of shakes and liquid meals out there. And just imagine all the benefits! No more having to brush your teeth twice a day, just think of all the time you'd save! No more painful visits to the dentist, no more money wasted on toothbrushes and tooth paste. It's definitely cleaner because, well, there's nothing to keep clean and the chance of tooth pain and possible afflictions has been reduced to zero because you don't have teeth anymore! Pull them all, I say! Every single argument in favor of circumcision I've ever heard falls short by a mile. It is a barbaric practice, a major violation of bodily integrity and genital mutilation. The supposed benefits are so small and so heavily contested in medicine that they're pretty much negligible, while the risks, complications and downsides are very real and well documented. And even if there were some small benefits to it, they'd be so tiny that they wouldn't justify the procedure, as supported by pretty much every single national medical health organization in the entire developed world. We don't know everything yet and it's definitely true that some aspects of circumcision are still unclear and debated, but the more we know and the more is discovered, the fewer things actually seem good about the procedure. The only reason anyone should refrain from supporting a complete ban is that it would drive the surgery underground where it would be done in clandestine and less than desirable circumstances instead of by medical professionals in a hospital. But aside from that, I really can't see how anyone who is usually so concerned with the morality of things as you are can argue against this procedure. I could write an entire post about how the actual reason people still support it is rooted in self preservation, but I don't think that would do anyone any good.
The flu vaccine is hardly a broad societal concern, it's more or less there for convenience, and far from necessary.
The reason we give newborns circumcisions is that they're even worse to perform on an adult.
Circumcisions and tattoos aren't nearly the same, one actually serves a puroose beyond looks. Uncircumsized penises are far easier to get dirty and infected, tattoos have no purpose whatsoever. Terrible analogy.
yet there's people serving decades in prison for willingly putting chemicals into their own bodies.
Praise Britannica - circumcision ruling
