Oregon Umpqua Community College Shooting

I don't even want to go on B.net or any other forum and see the dozens of "but criminals don't follow laws"

Because they don't.

"Criminals don't follow laws" is a completely empty statement. It's about as useful of a contribution to this debate as "drivers are people who drive" or "pilots are people who fly airplanes".

I don't see how something that has truth to it in the concept of law is an "empty statement."

The problem with that statement is the message that it's trying to convey. It's a hollow statement looking to appeal to people who get their political beliefs of a bumper sticker and fall for every seemingly powerful and deep message that is actually as shallow as they come and lacking in any nuance.

It doesn't lack nuance when it's obvious what the message is trying to convey and the fact is that people with a criminal intent indeed do not follow the law.

The idea behind this particularly poor argument is that criminals don't follow any of these laws to begin with, so having any sort of gun control would only hurt and affect the good law-abiding citizens who do follow them while criminals will just keep going at it, continuously commiting crimes that are now made even easier because there's no more good guys with guns to stop them.

Because that's reality. You make a law and the law-abiding citizens that obeyed the regulations before are (hopefully) going to do so again, and individuals who are involved in crime aren't going to follow shit. What does that mean? You potentially end up being in a situation like this and you have no hope to stop the shooter.

In reality, as anyone with some knowledge on this subject would be able to tell you, this is absolutely not true. Looking at all the tons of available evidence on a global scale, gun reforms result in sharp declines in firearm deaths almost immediately afterwards. "Some criminals obey some laws of the time" is the whole premise of law enforcement and criminal law. It comes as no surprise that "even imperfect efforts to restrict gun availability to high-risk people can reduce illegal gun use on the margin, even if these regulatory barriers can be overcome in a number of ways by those who are determined to obtain a gun."

Yeah I'm not saying there shouldn't be anything done to help prevent stuff like this, more thorough background checks and mental health programs is something I strongly advocate for, it would make a difference.

Your whole premise is a plain tautology that adds nothing to this discussion at all. You can use it to address any law. Why should we make rape, fraud or murder illegal? The good, law-abiding citizens who are sound of mind and have a prope rmoral compass are not going to commit those actions anyways, while the "evil" people or criminals will not follow the laws. Why limit others by having traffic regulations? The responsible people will drive responsibly and carefully anyways, while the rulebreakers will still speed and ignore traffic lights. It's just limiting the good people and would not stop anyone who wants to go 150mph down a local road from doing so in the first place.

First off, rape, fraud, and driving aren't constitutional rights. Second of all, those laws don't limit the good citizen in any way simply because there are no pros to having any of those legal. With firearms, the pro is that if someone fires a shot and there are permit holders in the area, the shooter can be dispatched immediately.

It has been shown time and time again that laws work.

Some, not all, and gun bans wouldn't be one of them.

They are the basis of our society. Even when some people don't, it both deters people from stepping into criminality and already existing criminals with prior facts from getting in even more trouble. It won't step everyone, of course, but it undeniably helps.

I didn't deny that, my point is that making a law that prohibits anyone from owning a gun would do way more harm than good. Like I said, this is where more thorough background checks and better mental healthcare come into play: the mentally ill who normally do stuff like this are mostly prevented from performing these acts, and the law-abiding citizen is still there to stop this if someone gets by.

Guns are bad.

When will it be enough to even have a discussion about it? How many of these have to happen before we actually stop and say the system should be reviewed?

People do this literally every time this happens. What else do people discuss on the news afte every tragedy? It's always a long debate about reform, it even got to the point where Obama wanted to ban assault weapons.

When will it be enough to even have a discussion about it? How many of these have to happen before we actually stop and say the system should be reviewed?

People do this literally every time this happens. What else do people discuss on the news afte every tragedy? It's always a long debate about reform, it even got to the point where Obama wanted to ban assault weapons.

Which should be enforced, I get that hicks out in the country need something more than a pistol but you don't need an AR15 if you live in a city or an urban area.

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I have done very little thinking into the issue of gun control, for some reason. That being said, it seems very obvious to me that guns should not be publicly available under any circumstances. I can't really think of a good reason to have a gun.

Somebody critique me.

I have done very little thinking into the issue of gun control, for some reason. That being said, it seems very obvious to me that guns should not be publicly available under any circumstances. I can't really think of a good reason to have a gun.

Somebody critique me.

Clearly for self defense against bears.

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I have done very little thinking into the issue of gun control, for some reason. That being said, it seems very obvious to me that guns should not be publicly available under any circumstances. I can't really think of a good reason to have a gun.

Somebody critique me.

Personal liberty and home security

See now, "Personal liberty" doesn't really mean much to me, because that's sort of arbitrary. I really couldn't care less if a person feels they're being deprived of freedom because I won't let them have something designed for the purpose of killing another human being. Home security is a different story, but I feel like that can be avoided with better security systems. I also wonder how many people are killed from home invasions each year, in comparison to those killed in mass shooting.

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I have done very little thinking into the issue of gun control, for some reason. That being said, it seems very obvious to me that guns should not be publicly available under any circumstances. I can't really think of a good reason to have a gun.

Somebody critique me.

Personal liberty and home security

Personal liberty is the worst reason.

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I have done very little thinking into the issue of gun control, for some reason. That being said, it seems very obvious to me that guns should not be publicly available under any circumstances. I can't really think of a good reason to have a gun.

Somebody critique me.

Personal liberty and home security

Personal liberty is the worst reason.

To you, some people actually still value the concept of personal liberties

"Personal liberty" honestly sounds like a reason people give when there is nothing else for them to use.

"Why should we make heroin use legal? Personal Liberty!"

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I have done very little thinking into the issue of gun control, for some reason. That being said, it seems very obvious to me that guns should not be publicly available under any circumstances. I can't really think of a good reason to have a gun.

Somebody critique me.

Personal liberty and home security

Personal liberty is the worst reason.

To you, some people actually still value the concept of personal liberties

"Personal liberty" honestly sounds like a reason people give when there is nothing else for them to use.

"Why should we make heroin use legal? Personal Liberty!"

Yeah someone should be able to do whatever they want as long as its not infringing upon another's rights. Really don't see what's hard to understand about that. What gives you the right to tell someone to not use heroin?

The fact that I'll likely end up paying for his medical issues stemming from heroin use, his time in jail from heroin use, or the fact that it's absolutely moronic and does little to help him without issues he actually is having.

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I have done very little thinking into the issue of gun control, for some reason. That being said, it seems very obvious to me that guns should not be publicly available under any circumstances. I can't really think of a good reason to have a gun.

Somebody critique me.

Personal liberty and home security

Personal liberty is the worst reason.

To you, some people actually still value the concept of personal liberties

"Personal liberty" honestly sounds like a reason people give when there is nothing else for them to use.

"Why should we make heroin use legal? Personal Liberty!"

Yeah someone should be able to do whatever they want as long as its not infringing upon another's rights. Really don't see what's hard to understand about that. What gives you the right to tell someone to not use heroin?

The fact that I'll likely end up paying for his medical issues stemming from heroin use, his time in jail from heroin use, or the fact that it's absolutely moronic and does little to help him without issues he actually is having.

None of that gives you the right. If he wants to inject himself with a lethal substance he has that right as a human being. I bet you want to make suicide illegal too don't you?

Suicide doesn't end in me having to pay for his hospital bill, so no. I don't care.

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Then write your friend Barack and tell him to get on it.

Oh yeah, Theres no God just because some lunatic decided to do the devils bidding and kill some innocent people. Makes sense. God just needed those people up in heaven with him. I'm proud of every one of those brave Christians who stood by their faith even with a gun to their head.

I don't know what's worse

the fact you're saying 20 children dying is "god's plan" or if you actually believe everything you're spouting.

I'll be the one to do Godwin's law work

6 millions jews dying was also gods plan

Honestly, I think it's more telling that we are the only advanced nation in the world that has mass shootings bi-monthly. Now argue what you want about what needs to be done

But if you think nothing needs to be done at all, and think more guns, or maintaining the status quo is right. Well then you honestly are saying those lives don't matter. Sorry, but no amount of "prayer" is going to stop the lead from piercing an 8 year old's brain.

Some of the things you say, Psy physically make me sick, because of the mass ignorance and intolerance it has with it. You should be ashamed of yourself.


But I guess I'm too hopeful. I always thought there would be SOME common ground on gun restriction. Mental health and better background checks are things anyone should agree to. Even my dad, 24 years in the Marines and working at Blackwater who loves the NRA agrees it's common sense. I thought it would happen.

But after seeing 20 children get slaughtered, and knowing kids are taught from an early age how to evade a mass murderer with a gun, and keep their heads below windows... The fact we just accept this now and have become numb to it. When those 20 children died and nothing was done at all, I knew then and there that unless the entire government changed, nothing will happen.

These will keep happening, and like I said in my original post, the same steps will keep taking place. We're probably only a day or so away from the NRA and other blind loving gun enthusiasts saying that nothing is wrong. And the worst part is I too have become jaded on the issue, which is terrible because it could easily be any of us getting caught in it.



It's honestly times like this that I am ashamed to be an American and know the whole world looks down at us for things that are common sense for any other developed country. England and Australia let one mass shooting happen and changed things, and now it's vastly different.

I'm done talking about it, this is actually depressing me. Such ignorance and asinine thinking just.. *sigh* I'm going for a bath

But it could if it was a failed attempt so tell me what's the difference?

Also this problem could easily be solved if hospitals didn't give treatment unless someone had the capabilities to pay for it themselves with insurance rather than use tax payer money. But that's a sacrilegious conjecture for the liberal agenda, how dare I.

Lord forbid there is a car accident, and someone doesn't have insurance. Fuck them.

Honestly, if we want to go this whole "personal freedom, do what the fuck you want!", fine - you want to dose up on heroin, you lose a right to public options such as hospitals, public transport, etc. Find your own way around, your own medical care.

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I don't see why someone should lose their right to everything for using heroin? I didn't say that. If they do it and overdose and need to go to the hospital, fine as long as they can cover the charges themselves. If not sucks to suck, shouldn't have used that heroin. The point of doing these things is that you also still be a functioning member of society or you can die for all I care.

No government services, included stuff paying for taxpayer dollars, should be offered to those that want to exercise "personal freedom"

If you want to fuck up your life like that, do it without burdening a functioning society, thanks.

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Yeah you don't care about personal liberty until the government tries to take away something you do care about.

The point is that you shouldn't care about guns.

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Yeah you don't care about personal liberty until the government tries to take away something you do care about.

The point is that you shouldn't care about guns.

That's your opinion

Of course, but I don't exactly see a practical reason besides home defense that would warrant the necessity of a gun, and like I said, I believe that can be resolved through other means. Why do you need a gun, barring that? What practical benefit does gun ownership have?

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