A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
I actually find it offensive when I come across Muslims who claim to be feminists. No, fuck you, you piece of shit. You aren't allowed to claim to be in the name of progress and equality when you hold on to bullshit seventh century dogma.
I'm eating lunch right now, but the long and short of it is these verses don't mean what they seem to mean.
these verses don't mean what they seem to mean.
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on February 19, 2015, 11:22:19 AMI'm eating lunch right now, but the long and short of it is these verses don't mean what they seem to mean.I think they're very straightforward, and I'm not sure how they could be misinterpreted, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. .
QuoteThen they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on February 19, 2015, 11:22:19 AM these verses don't mean what they seem to mean.I find it hard to believe God was either a monoglot or a bad communicator.
In the first sentence, Paul's addressing an issue Timothy was having with women being loud and disruptive in a church. In the second sentence, Paul's talking about his personal style of running a church in which male deacons instructed men, and female deacons instructed the women. That's just how it was in that day, catechism classes were separated by gender. He's telling Timothy he prefers to do so, rather than mix them. He's not saying it's wrong for women to teach, which is obviously wrong since there's overwhelming evidence of Christianity using women as teachers, and was highly progressive and egalitarian in its treatment of women as compared to the rest of society.
I don't see any problem with this. There are other verses telling men to do the same thing, and submit to their spouse, too. Men and women are equal in a marriage and should both work and be faithful.
There are interesting theories here, delving into the original language it was written. One prominent theory is that the word translated into 'male' actually fits 'boy' better, and is referring to the young male servant that was typical in neighboring Mediterranean cultures, often used sexually by the master of the house. This law is telling the Israelites that they shouldn't adopt that practice. Another less specific theory is that, because homosexuality was more dominant in Mediterranean areas, and Israel was meant to remain apart of them, that they should not follow that practice.Nothing to say about this except that it was a law of Israel at the time. It's not a commandment to put homosexuals (or anyone) to death. This particular law falls under the civil category, rather than the religious category of Israelite laws.
The Catholic Church is also in a constant state of reform. Although painstakingly slow at times the church is able to progress and has proven so in the past (ex: Second Vatican Council)It's perfectly reasonably to have opinions that seem contradictory to your belief yet still be an active, evolving member.
Being gay and a christian seems no less logical to me than being gay and living in the south.
Quote from: DAS | Defender of Loli on February 19, 2015, 12:58:40 PMBeing gay and a christian seems no less logical to me than being gay and living in the south.The South isn't a religious faction >.>
Quote from: Kupo on February 19, 2015, 01:24:17 PMQuote from: DAS | Defender of Loli on February 19, 2015, 12:58:40 PMBeing gay and a christian seems no less logical to me than being gay and living in the south.The South isn't a religious faction >.>So?
It's not like the South has legal justification for stoning gay people >.>
Quote from: DAS | Defender of Loli on February 19, 2015, 12:58:40 PMBeing gay and a christian seems no less logical to me than being gay and living in the south.Being under the equator doesn't inspire people to make and carry signs saying "god hates fags" though.
Quote from: Kupo on February 19, 2015, 01:40:00 PMIt's not like the South has legal justification for stoning gay people >.>They used to have it for lynching. If a culture can progress, why can't a religion? After all, it's simply words written by the men of the time to reflect how society should behave.
Throughout the history of Christianity, the biggest positions were always reserved for men. They can't be priests, or cardinals, or the Pope. Men still run the show.
Can you provide these verses?
1 Corinthians 7:1-16New International Version (NIV)Concerning Married Life7 Now for the matters you wrote about: βIt is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.β 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
What have you to say about Sodom and Gomorrah? You know, the town that was smitten by God for being too fabulous?
Quote from: DAS | Defender of Loli on February 19, 2015, 01:45:39 PMQuote from: Kupo on February 19, 2015, 01:40:00 PMIt's not like the South has legal justification for stoning gay people >.>They used to have it for lynching. If a culture can progress, why can't a religion? After all, it's simply words written by the men of the time to reflect how society should behave.Government has mechanisms for changing the rules. Religion doesn't.
That's mostly in Catholicism. My church has women leaders, as do many Protestant churches. I don't agree with Catholicismin many areas, and I think they've largely fallen into apostasy.
Spoilerhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/marriage-bible-verses/1 Corinthians 7:1-16New International Version (NIV)Concerning Married Life7 Now for the matters you wrote about: βIt is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.β 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Homosexuality is a sin in Christianity. I'm not saying it isn't. Sodom wasn't an upstanding town filled with happy, nice gay people. It was a town that was completely lost to self-indulgence and immorality, and the specific event that sparked its destruction was when the townspeople gang-raped a visitor. What I'm telling you is that it is not a commandment to kill gay people, that was just the law of the city at the time. You have to look at this through the lens of history, in which that was pretty much status quo.
Quote from: Kupo on February 19, 2015, 01:46:47 PMQuote from: DAS | Defender of Loli on February 19, 2015, 01:45:39 PMQuote from: Kupo on February 19, 2015, 01:40:00 PMIt's not like the South has legal justification for stoning gay people >.>They used to have it for lynching. If a culture can progress, why can't a religion? After all, it's simply words written by the men of the time to reflect how society should behave.Government has mechanisms for changing the rules. Religion doesn't.But you see, religion does. SpoilerHeck, it's in the Islamic texts that anything found to be contradicted in a later Surah is to be struck out and replaced with the new rule.
Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on February 19, 2015, 01:49:37 PMThat's mostly in Catholicism. My church has women leaders, as do many Protestant churches. I don't agree with Catholicismin many areas, and I think they've largely fallen into apostasy.What are their actual positions, though? I think that's key here >.> if it's just a 'poor man's priest' kind of role, that's still not equal.
I don't quite see how that necessarily rejects the quotes I gave. Yeah, be nice to each other and all, but the man still gets priority.
God literally killed gay people
God literally killed gay people. It was the law in Israel because, obviously, nobody wanted to get smitten. There's no reason to believe God changed his mind about homosexuality, and thus no reason to believe that it's suddenly okay to abandon such a law. It's common sense.
Quote from: Kupo on February 19, 2015, 02:06:28 PMGod literally killed gay people. It was the law in Israel because, obviously, nobody wanted to get smitten. There's no reason to believe God changed his mind about homosexuality, and thus no reason to believe that it's suddenly okay to abandon such a law. It's common sense.There's no reason to believe that Sodom or Gomorrah and the catastrophe that destroyed them were real, though. Jews gonna jew, ya know. And as Turkey alluded to, homosexuality was the least damning habit of the supposed inhabitants.
Several women on the board of elders, several women pastors. It's very common for women to be in those positions.
It literally says they're equals and to be subservient to each other.
Yeah, he also killed straight people. A town that's cool with people gang-raping visitors as a welcome-wagon is p
Quote from: Kupo on February 19, 2015, 02:06:28 PMGod literally killed gay people. It was the law in Israel because, obviously, nobody wanted to get smitten. There's no reason to believe God changed his mind about homosexuality, and thus no reason to believe that it's suddenly okay to abandon such a law. It's common sense.There's no reason to believe that Sodom or Gomorrah and the catastrophe that destroyed them were real, though. Jews gonna jew, ya know.And as Turkey alluded to, homosexuality was the least damning habit of the supposed inhabitants.
Actually I think they found remnants of an old settlement/town (Plural perhaps) underneath the dead sea <.< I vaguely remember reading something about it being the basis for sodom and gomorrah, which could be used as an easy explanation for why two towns got BTFO by the ocean (Rather than fire and brimstone but ehh)Because of tectonic shifts opening up the mediterranean to an inland valley isn't quite as... BC as say, they defied god/were scummy bastards etc.I don't know if turkey has any further knowledge on this though <.<He seems pretty versed in the verses >.>
I'm on my phone now, so quoting is harder.For the church positions, elders are the unpaid, volunteer leaders of the church. They directly control the high paid positions like lead or executive pastor. I've told you what their positions are. There isn't a 1:1 correspondence to Catholicism, but a pastor is equivalent to a priest, typically.As for the notion of God destroying another place, well you'd kind of have to read the books to get the story, but after the New Testament sin isn't reciprocated the same way.Homosexuality is a tough issue and I think you'll see a lot of backpedaling in the next few decades. The most reasonable explanation I've heard is that some people (gay people and lesbians, particularly) are called to live in chastity. Not sure how much I agree, but the overarching idea is that sexuality is sacred and to be treated with modesty and control. Whether you accept the interpretation of Sodom and Gomorrah is non-salvific.
For this reason God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Stoning was the law at the time. "The wages of sin is death" is a common phrase you may have heard, basically meaning that from the very beginning, any of the mildest transgressions should have been met with death. The reason that all changed is because, prior to Jesus, sacrifices were made to atone. After Jesus, there's no need for them. The levitical laws were nullified long before then, though.
Logical conflict between religion and social movements?
