Liberty or Security?

 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Of course, the two must be balanced, but it's patently obvious that the liberal world is going too far in its emphasis on the latter.


Magos Domina | Heroic Invincible!
 
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Security is more important.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Security is more important.


The communists will take your livelihood! A suspension of your liberties is but a temporary and worthwhile trade-off to secure the Reich and its people.


 
 
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<.<
inb4thatbloodyquotefromfranklin


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Liberty makes you secure, brah.


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I think it's a false dichotomy.


 
𝑺𝒆𝒄𝒐𝒏𝒅𝑪𝒍𝒂𝒔𝒔
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Liberty for sure. No fucking question.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
85.7% Liberty


 
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Why not both?


 
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>Implying you can't have both


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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I think it's a false dichotomy.
You can't disagree that, with the government trying to ensure security, it will pretty much always encroach.


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
Liberty. We at least still have our rights.
If we go for security, we can't undo all the crap that happens on the way there. Surrendering freedoms.


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.


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This is pathetic, Cheat
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Liberty.

You will never be 100% secure. That's just a fact of life. Obviously there should be a median between the two, but freedom should always come before safety.


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I think it's a false dichotomy.
You can't disagree that, with the government trying to ensure security, it will pretty much always encroach.

I think it's very easy for people that have, for the most part, never faced a serious threat from another power, to say that liberty is far more important than security.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.

I feel confused that you're not defending the government. If you become a famous politician when you get older, you're not going to throw away all the opportunities you'll get for supporting larger government so that you could please the populace. Or are you just pretending to be anti-gov to confuse us because you've secretly been manipulating us this whole time?
My incentives as a citizen aren't the same as my incentives as a politician, so I won't pretend to know how I might act in the latter situation. I will say, however, that being able to criticise past and current governments for their shortfalls, regardless of your genuineness, is a good thing to have in your arsenal.



 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I think it's very easy for people that have, for the most part, never faced a serious threat from another power, to say that liberty is far more important than security.
I think it's very easy for people that don't, for the most part, realise that their own government can pose a significant threat to their well-being.


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I think it's very easy for people that have, for the most part, never faced a serious threat from another power, to say that liberty is far more important than security.
I think it's very easy for people that don't, for the most part, realise that their own government can pose a significant threat to their well-being.

Sentence fragment. All I'm saying is that we've got a bunch of relatively wealthy, free, and safe people in this thread saying they'd take liberty over security no matter what, and that just seems incredibly juvenile to me.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I think it's very easy for people that have, for the most part, never faced a serious threat from another power, to say that liberty is far more important than security.
I think it's very easy for people that don't, for the most part, realise that their own government can pose a significant threat to their well-being.

Sentence fragment. All I'm saying is that we've got a bunch of relatively wealthy, free, and safe people in this thread saying they'd take liberty over security no matter what, and that just seems incredibly juvenile to me.
I should clarify that when I use the word "liberty" I don't mean total autonomy, like in Somalia where you can pretty much do whatever you like and the only consequence is having people return the favour.

Some measure of security is necessary for liberty - one needs to have a means to live when bargaining for employment, for example. However, in the game of balancing the two, I think most people here are saying we shouldn't sacrifice our liberties for the government to protect us from those who would do us harm. One, because it is self-defeating, and secondly because lost liberties are hard to recover.

I actually think it's right the U.S. gov't want to send Manning and Snowden to the gallows, but their revelations still show the government is going too far in pursuing security is an aim.


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We always say to fight fire, you must use fire. This is wrong. Fighting fire with fire will leave scars and a new flame will rise. We must instead use water. It is the opposite of fire, it extinguishes the fire, it cools, it refreshes, it heals. We are made up of 70% water, we are not made up of 70% fire. Please practice what we truly are
I want Liberty granted to me so I can provide my own security.


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I didn't think the Snowden/Manning leaks were even particularly interesting. Of course the government needs to be checked and held accountable, and that efforts to enforce its will can infringe on liberties, but the idea that liberty and security are to be balanced is just silly, in my opinion. Look at Iraq, under Saddam they had significantly more rights and freedom, as well as security. Now under pseudo-democracy they have very little of both. Or the USSR: low freedom, high security. Or America now: high freedom, high security. Or Britain during the Blitz: restricted liberties for marginally more security. There are tons of conflicting cases, and it's shortsighted to think that it could never be acceptable to give up a freedom to be safe for a time.

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving from the states!



 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Look at Iraq, under Saddam they had significantly more rights and freedom, as well as security.
The people of Iraq had only the freedoms Hussein felt they like should have. That's not liberty or security, that's living under the capriciousness of a tyrant.

You seem to still be mistaking people's opinions in this thread (or at least mine) for an absolute declaration of no short-term variability. We're talking, primarily, about long-term trade-off. Of course liberty and security don't totally collide, and as variables like technology improve it can increase the governments capacity to protect both or favour one. Not to mention, you have a very warped sense of "security". The Soviets had high security? I'm sure even the humblest CHEKA officer would take issue with that idea.

Like I said earlier, the government can pose just as much a threat as some outside influence like the Taliban or ISIS and in its pursuit of security it can often cement itself as an entity of danger itself. The question is not a consequential one, but rather about the impact governmental intentions can have. To say the Soviets had security - or that my nation has security improved by adding journalists to a list of domestic terrorists - is to make a complete mockery of the entire idea.

Happy Puritans-fucked-off-on-the-Mayflower Day from Bongistan.
Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 01:09:52 PM by Meta Cognition


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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This is pathetic, Cheat
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Though I hope Turkey is right about there being ways around having to choose one over the other.
There certainly are. You need security as a pre-requisite for liberty. The problem is when the government becomes capricious, and starts bypassing national laws and the judicial system.


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Moms spaghetti
There should be a balanced social contract that fits the needs of the people.