Let's get something straight.

Sandtrap · July 28, 2015, 10:39:00 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 28, 2015, 10:33:18 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 28, 2015, 06:30:16 AM
Quote from: Winy on July 27, 2015, 08:47:08 AM
Nobody's getting hurt
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Nobody is getting hurt.

If you commit suicide over it, that's your fault. Not the disorder's.

Oh, and the people who hurt/abuse them. But what kind of idiotic load of cuntshit is that?
"Transgenderism hurts people! I should know, because I just beat my son to death for being transgendered!"

Verb, don't fuck this dead corpse of a thread any more than it already has been. By the way you forgot something.

Challenger or Beeny will most likely respond with something along the lines of mental agitation of the parents for fostering a kid with a disorder or, of course, "body mutilation" as operations take place, counting them as things that hurt others.

There's a dead end to this thread. It's going nowhere. Leave it to its grave man.

challengerX · July 28, 2015, 12:12:50 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · July 28, 2015, 12:16:06 PM

And if no one was born, no one would ever suffer, ever.

What is your point. Are you an anti-natalist now? Have you conceded anti-natalism, because every causal link involving any negative circumstance whatsoever is ultimately rooted in everyone's birth? Yeah, you're an anti-nataist now.

Excellent.

challengerX · July 28, 2015, 05:27:48 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · July 28, 2015, 05:38:51 PM

Life is probably the worst disease ever.

Either way, not all transgendered people commit suicide. And the more we allow them to be comfortable doing whatever the fuck they want to do (like, I don't know, eliminating the concept of gender), the less they will.

Ásgeirr · July 28, 2015, 05:53:21 PM

This trans thing to me is like sexual orientation. Pointless terms, let people be, help if needed.

challengerX · July 28, 2015, 06:04:12 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · July 28, 2015, 06:11:44 PM

Quote from: challengerX on July 28, 2015, 06:04:12 PM

There's no such thing as disease without life.

Exactly.

Quote

Enough commit suicide for us to take it seriously and try to cure.

You will fail.

It would be as pointless as trying to cure homosexuality.

challengerX · July 28, 2015, 06:26:13 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · July 28, 2015, 06:33:39 PM

Quote from: challengerX on July 28, 2015, 06:26:13 PM

Thus life isn't a disease.

Shit logic.

Quote

We can cure homosexuality too.

LOL

Mattie G Indahouse · July 28, 2015, 08:02:09 PM

I have nothing against them being whatever gender they want to be but if there is research being done on how to make their brain right I would support it. I see no harm being done by getting rid of or actually treating the source for them wanting to be male or female. To me dealing with the problem makes more sense than giving in to it which could still leave you with a problem as well. Being born male or female is completely different than changing your appearance to look like one. That right there isn't going to change no matter how many people accept you. Even if you do get the surgery and are taking hormones you could still be depressed about not being born that sex which could led you to suicide. To me treating the problem is a lot more helpful than giving into it.

eggsalad · July 28, 2015, 09:07:39 PM

again why do you people keep saying that allowing them to transition is "giving in". it's a process that for many individuals helps alleviate their stress. if you can't change the brain to match the body yet, then change the body to match the brain.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 05:37:24 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 05:39:09 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

eggsalad · July 29, 2015, 05:47:52 AM

how fucking dense are you. I have not ever been against a cure for the condition because it is goddamn awful. I've been saying this entire time that until you fuckwits can produce a feasible cure (no, gay conversion-esque methods are not cures) then you have no ability to say that allowing people to transition should be disallowed, is bad, or is anything short of what we should be doing. To disagree is to disagree with people who've spent their careers in psychology and psychiatry just because deep down you feel attacked by the concept.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 06:51:27 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mr. Psychologist · July 29, 2015, 07:05:25 AM

First point - Try to clean it up in here, you can hold the discussion without flaming each other.

Second (relating to the discussion itself)
It's a disorder rather than a disease, because it's an intrinsic issue that the person has rather than an externally afflicted one. So a cure in the traditional sense is unlikely to ever exist, you can't cure autism for example. You can find ways to treat it and mitigate the symptoms though, to lessen the suffering the person has as a result of the condition and helping them to live a happier/successful life.

If someone is dysphoric and it isn't a temporary mindset, they've been seeing a therapist for a length of time with no notable headway in either direction and they are on the whole unhappy with their life as a male/female, then the remaining options for treatment dwindle down to reassignment.

At the present that is the only alternative treatment and for some people it can work well and they do go on to live a happier life, for others it isn't as successful but that can be down to other comorbid problems rather than just because it flat out doesn't work.

The appalling suicide rates I believe are down to the social issues and comorbid disorders rather than an inherent problem with the dysphoria. The best way to compare that is to look across cultures at how transgenderism is treated, damn near universally it is reviled and stigmatised but in the places that it isn't (somewhere in polynesia iirc was the example) whodathunkit that they live happy lives and don't end up just flat out killing themselves.

So who knows, one day we might find a magic pill cure for it which switches the mind to suit the body without any of the issues that past attempts to do this have had. Until then, the mind is the more valuable half of a human. The fleshy vessel that houses it is secondary to that person's existence. Cosmetic changes to it that make the mind happier shouldn't be an issue to anyone other than the person having those changes, but given that humans are the nosiest creatures on the planet when it comes to shoving their interests into other people's shit it's hardly all that surprising.

eggsalad · July 29, 2015, 07:19:23 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 06:51:27 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on July 29, 2015, 05:47:52 AM
how fucking dense are you.
lolmad

Quote
I have not ever been against a cure for the condition because it is goddamn awful.
Try rereading your posts.

Not seeing anything, someone can support current treatment and search for a cure at the same time.

Quote

Quote
I've been saying this entire time that until you fuckwits can produce a feasible cure
So we need to all of a sudden become geniuses and find a cure for something immediately otherwise or argument that we need to find a cure is invalid?

LOL

No, I've been saying that you can't make an argument against the treatment we have now if you have no alternative that we can look to.

Quote

Quote
(no, gay conversion-esque methods are not cures)
Point out where in my posts I said that. If you can do that, I'll take you seriously.

I've stated before that I only make this comparison because you fail to give me an example of a solution that I can use as an example instead. Give me something to work with or I'll make it for you.

Quote

Quote
then you have no ability to say that allowing people to transition should be disallowed, is bad, or is anything short of what we should be doing.
It is bad. It doesn't cure the disease. It's a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

Compared to doing nothing.

Quote

Quote
To disagree is to disagree with people who've spent their careers in psychology and psychiatry just because deep down you feel attacked by the concept.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

This seems to be a doctor disagreeing with SRS and intervention in early childhood, both of which are different subjects than HRT and transgender treatment in general.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 07:25:21 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mordo · July 29, 2015, 07:30:49 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on July 29, 2015, 07:19:23 AM

You're arguing with the dude that thought there was some kind of conspiracy involved in the Michael Brown shooting. He will not stop until he gets the last word regardless of how half baked his arguments are. You're wasting your time.

eggsalad · July 29, 2015, 07:34:18 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 07:25:21 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on July 29, 2015, 07:19:23 AM
Not seeing anything, someone can support current treatment and search for a cure at the same time.
Except it isn't treatment.

It literally is.

Quote

Quote
No, I've been saying that you can't make an argument against the treatment we have now if you have no alternative that we can look to.
How the fuck am I supposed to have an alternative? I'm not a scientist or doctor.

I do know enough that we need to study this further to find a cure instead of playing along with them.

Why are these things mutually exclusive.

What are patients supposed to do if there is no cure and they don't receive treatment? Believe it or not plenty of people who receive treatment live happy lives because of it.

Quote

Quote
I've stated before that I only make this comparison because you fail to give me an example of a solution that I can use as an example instead.
Research. Not sure how many times I need to tell you that.

Have never been against research. Me telling you that you saying treatment is bad is stupid does not mean I think we should not research a true cure.

Quote

Quote
Give me something to work with or I'll make it for you.
LOL Is this a threat?

No?

Quote

Quote
Compared to doing nothing.
And yet they still commit suicide.

And some still live happy lives because of their treatment, what's your point? Not treating them certainly won't change this statistic, if not making it worse.

Quote

Quote
This seems to be a doctor disagreeing with SRS and intervention in early childhood, both of which are different subjects than HRT and transgender treatment in general.
They've stopped the gender reassignment surgery in that hospital.

I meant SRS in general and then also measures to treat children, sorry if there was confusion.
But that doesn't really change much, SRS is still a different matter than HRT and transitioning.

eggsalad · July 29, 2015, 07:35:18 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 07:30:49 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on July 29, 2015, 07:19:23 AM
You're arguing with the dude that thought there was some kind of conspiracy involved in the Michael Brown shooting. He will not stop until he gets the last word regardless of how half baked his arguments are. You're wasting your time.

yeah, i can take bait like this pretty easily before I've had my meds.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 07:49:59 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 07:56:06 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mordo · July 29, 2015, 07:59:14 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 07:49:59 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 07:30:49 AM
Quote from: eggsalad on July 29, 2015, 07:19:23 AM
You're arguing with the dude that thought there was some kind of conspiracy involved in the Michael Brown shooting. He will not stop until he gets the last word regardless of how half baked his arguments are. You're wasting your time.
thinks*

And it's not a conspiracy theory. It's just another day for the police and justice system.

All this coming from the guy skewing the facts to fit his narrative and can't do basic percentages. You'll have to excuse me if I don't take you seriously when you don't even fully research what it is you talk about.

I've recanted positions before, and I've said things that I retract. It's not as difficult as you might think.

Salad is actually positing really good arguments, and I remain ambivalent on transgenderism, but all you're really doing is shouting "I'm right because I say I'm right." You talk all this shit about PC idiots like Max refusing to listen to other arguments, and yet you're doing just exactly what you're describing.

If you can't see the beautiful irony in that, then you're a lost cause beyond all recognition mate.

Verbatim · July 29, 2015, 08:05:21 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 05:37:24 AM

It's simple logic. Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's wrong.

It just means you're dumb.

"Life isn't a disease, because without life, there would be no diseases."

I'll let you work out for yourself why that makes NO sense. Don't strain yourself.

Quote

Believe it or not there's nothing beneficial in homosexuality or transgenderism.

I never said there was.

There is also nothing beneficial about heterosexuality and cisgenderism.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 08:16:02 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · July 29, 2015, 08:18:36 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mordo · July 29, 2015, 08:28:56 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 08:16:02 AM

I'm not going to get in some ebid quote war with you because it basically just devolves into fantastical shit flings.

What I will say is that you keep conflating correlation with causation. Your line of argument is basically "transgender people kill themselves after reassignment surgery, ergo reassignment surgery is causing them to commit suicide, we need to find an alternative" without actually examining any kind of nuances involved because of your own preconceived biases against transgenderism. You're not being intellectually honest at all. Your argument does not hold up under the most cursory of examinations.

Quote

It's not about "recanting" and "retracting". You legitimately tried to push the idea that white people are targeted more by police in America when it's blatantly untrue.

Hence the recantation.

Verbatim · July 29, 2015, 08:29:26 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 08:18:36 AM

Life can't be a disease because it brings may their things apart from diseases.

That wasn't incoherent at all. 👌

You wanna try that again in standard English, or?...

Quote

How about the fact that heterosexual people don't kill themselves because they don't have gender dysphoria and that they can have kids?

"We don't kill ourselves."

That's not a benefit. That's like saying that one of the benefits of your job is that there aren't any tigers trying to maul you outside. It's true, and it's a good thing, but is that a real benefit? No. It's not.

Also, having kids is wrong.