Let's get something straight.

aREALgod · July 05, 2015, 05:51:09 PM

Transgenderism is not normal. It's the opposite of normal, something's in fact very wrong with it. There is no way you could ever somehow say it's normal for someone born a male to feel like they're in the wrong body or need to be female - clearly something is wrong, the wiring got mixed up or some shit and now there's the wrong signals being sent. It's detrimental for the individual to endure such a confusing fuck up, let alone the rest of society to understand it. So why is transgenderism slowly being pushed as a normal thing when something clearly went wrong? Do you see it happening in nature? Do we ever see a lion trying to bite it's own balls off because it'd rather be a lioness? No. So why are we pushing this idea it's okay?

It should be noted I have nothing against transgender people. I empathize for them because it would definitely be a scary thing to be born a dude or girl but feel like it's the wrong body. So why isn't something like transgenderism being studied to look for causes or cures? If a cure could be found and the gender identity issue resolved, wouldn't that be the best option? It would allow an avenue for those afflicted with the dysphoria.

In short, I absolutely believe it should be studied, and without vilification. Transgender people should be allowed to do as they please, but let's not fool ourselves into believing it's normal or okay, when the cold hard truth is that it isn't. The closer we could get to ending it, the better. It would mean less and less people would have to deal with such a controversial hardship.

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 05:53:06 PM

Abnormal =/= wrong.

aREALgod · July 05, 2015, 05:54:27 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 05, 2015, 05:53:06 PM

Abnormal =/= wrong.

ab·nor·mal
abˈnôrməl/
adjective
adjective: abnormal

deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying.
"the illness is recognizable from the patient's abnormal behavior"
synonyms: unusual, uncommon, atypical, untypical, nontypical, unrepresentative, rare, isolated, irregular, anomalous, deviant, divergent, aberrant, freak, freakish;

It doesn't need to be "wrong" to be considered a detriment.

rC · July 05, 2015, 05:56:08 PM

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

rC · July 05, 2015, 05:56:28 PM

Wrong thread sorry

aREALgod · July 05, 2015, 05:59:30 PM

Quote from: Nuka on July 05, 2015, 05:55:44 PM

I think you're mistaken, it's more of a push for social acceptance so that people can live normal lives. There's nothing inherently wrong with allowing a transgender individual live their lives like everyone else without the massive amount of discrimination and roadblocks that have to be overcome in day to day life.

The social acceptance I'm absolutely for, but there's also this trend along with it that transgenderism is natural, or normal, or w/e. But when something as significant as gender dysphoria is fucked up, that's far from normal.

I would like to ask you your thoughts on this. If there was an option for you to no longer have the gender identity issues you have, would you take that option? Or would you rather stay as you are?

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 06:03:11 PM

You're conflating abnormality with wrongness, though. Just because something is naturally uncommon, it doesn't follow that it should be discouraged.

The 'detrimental' aspect is entirely due to social climate.

aREALgod · July 05, 2015, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 05, 2015, 06:03:11 PM

The 'detrimental' aspect is entirely due to social climate.

Pure horseshit speculation. I'm pretty damn sure even without social climate that if you were born a girl but felt like you needed a penis (looool), you would still be pretty confused and probably feel a lot of undue pressure.

More Than Mortal · July 05, 2015, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 05, 2015, 06:03:11 PM

The 'detrimental' aspect is entirely due to social climate.

Come on man, that's bullshit. Dysphoria would be commonplace among transgendered people regardless of social climate.

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 06:20:32 PM

Quote from: SHAWN BEEN on July 05, 2015, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 05, 2015, 06:03:11 PM
The 'detrimental' aspect is entirely due to social climate.
Pure horseshit speculation. I'm pretty damn sure even without social climate that if you were born a girl but felt like you needed a penis (looool), you would still be pretty confused and probably feel a lot of undue pressure.

Then I don't know what your point is.

Nobody I know has ever claimed that it is 'normal' in the sense that you're using. The point is that abnormality is associated with wrongness in our society. And telling people there's something wrong with them is far more detrimental to their wellbeing than merely telling them they're different.

That has everything to do with the social climate.

Jocephalopod · July 05, 2015, 06:32:02 PM

The only good transgender thread on this site

http://sep7agon.net/index.php?topic=36561.msg702634#msg702634

Verbatim · July 05, 2015, 06:40:19 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 05, 2015, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 05, 2015, 06:03:11 PM
The 'detrimental' aspect is entirely due to social climate.
Come on man, that's bullshit. Dysphoria would be commonplace among transgendered people regardless of social climate.

how do you figure

like, seriously

aREALgod · July 05, 2015, 06:56:34 PM

Quote from: Nuka on July 05, 2015, 06:40:02 PM

Also it has less to do with "hurr, I wish I had a penis" and "I wanna be a big strong man" and more to do with the chemical makeup of your brain. Social climate can play a large role, but there are more biological/psychological roots.

But then again, this is purely talking about people with dysphoria. There are people who identify as transgender who have never experienced dysphoria and simply enjoy playing around with gender and breaking the societal expectations. Which to me is perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with challenging the status quo.

When I put it in the "I wish I had a penis" terms, it's just a very basic way to word it. I know the actual feeling and whatever goes on is much more complex than just such a short, non-critical sentence, but it was easiest, especially for those of us who aren't in the same shoes.

That is another angle entirely - some do just want to challenge the status quo, which is fine of course. I am speaking for those who have real dysphoria. Even if there was an option, those who have it may be against it simply because they could feel the dysphoria more truly defines them as an individual than anything else.

eggsalad · July 05, 2015, 06:58:43 PM

Quote from: SHAWN BEEN on July 05, 2015, 05:59:30 PM

I would like to ask you your thoughts on this. If there was an option for you to no longer have the gender identity issues you have, would you take that option? Or would you rather stay as you are?

I feel like there is a large difference between asking this and asking if someone would have rather never had the condition. I would certainly take the latter, but as of now not the first.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 05, 2015, 07:13:16 PM

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Verbatim · July 05, 2015, 08:47:54 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on July 05, 2015, 07:13:16 PM

I genuinely don't know where I stand on transgenderism

pretty simple issue, tbh

live and let live

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 08:58:03 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 05, 2015, 06:07:25 PM

Come on man, that's bullshit. Dysphoria would be commonplace among transgendered people regardless of social climate.

I don't see how.

There's the feeling that you've got something wrong with you, which is due to social climate;

And there's the feeling that you want to be the opposite gender because of some socially ingrained ideas about gender roles.

I'm open to the idea that there's more to it than that, but I'd like to know what, and I'd still say the above two are the biggest culprits for making dysphoria as psychologically damaging as it is.

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 10:14:24 PM

Quote from: Nuka on July 05, 2015, 09:08:54 PM

Are you reading what I'm saying? At all?

I wasn't having a discussion with you, so no.

What you've essentially said is that we'll just never understand it unless it happens to us. I'm sorry, but that's not a compelling argument.

I'm not sure what hormonal imbalances have to do with this, because I'm discussing the psychological damage from gender dysphoria, rather than the mere recognition that you have it. And as far as I can see, this is a consequence of socially ingrained norms and attitudes.

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 10:23:50 PM

Quote from: Nuka on July 05, 2015, 10:19:29 PM

Gender identity goes deeper than just societal expectations, I don't know how you don't understand that.

Because you haven't explained it to me.

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 10:29:47 PM

And like I said, I'm not denying that gender identity is biologically driven. I'm saying the psychological damage people experience from it is largely, if not entirely due to social norms regarding gender roles and what is/what isn't normal.

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 10:45:37 PM

So you agree that it is due to the social climate?

Cindy · July 05, 2015, 10:49:02 PM

Sounds about right

Pendulate · July 05, 2015, 10:52:54 PM

Well, no, I don't necessarily think social climate is the cause of gender dysphoria. But I do think it's the cause of the detrimental aspects.

eggsalad · July 05, 2015, 10:55:05 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on July 05, 2015, 10:52:54 PM

Well, no, I don't necessarily think social climate is the cause of gender dysphoria. But I do think it's the cause of the detrimental aspects.

Is an incongruity between what you desire to experience from your body (in a sexual manner for example) and what you are capable of experiencing not detrimental to someone's mental health? Is an innate inability to satisfy one's own sexuality not a serious issue not caused by social pressures?

or shit im getting this confused with body dysphoria aren't i

thepanzieman · July 05, 2015, 11:33:38 PM

as I've said in bungle, transgender does not exist because gender does not exist.

Mad Max · July 05, 2015, 11:37:16 PM

Quote from: SHAWN BEEN on July 05, 2015, 05:51:09 PM

Transgenderism is not normal. It's the opposite of normal, something's in fact very wrong with it.

LOL THIS FUCKING GUY

DAS B00T x2 · July 05, 2015, 11:40:54 PM

Quote from: thepanzieman on July 05, 2015, 11:33:38 PM

as I've said in bungle, transgender does not exist because gender does not exist.

But it does.

Gender roles are more of a social construct at this point, but gender is a physical construct that affects the chemical makeup of the brain.

aREALgod · July 05, 2015, 11:41:56 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on July 05, 2015, 11:37:16 PM

Quote from: SHAWN BEEN on July 05, 2015, 05:51:09 PM
Transgenderism is not normal. It's the opposite of normal, something's in fact very wrong with it.
LOL THIS FUCKING GUY

Oh, so it's completely normal and not an issue at all?

Mad Max · July 05, 2015, 11:44:35 PM

Quote from: SHAWN BEEN on July 05, 2015, 11:41:56 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on July 05, 2015, 11:37:16 PM
Quote from: SHAWN BEEN on July 05, 2015, 05:51:09 PM
Transgenderism is not normal. It's the opposite of normal, something's in fact very wrong with it.
LOL THIS FUCKING GUY

Oh, so it's completely normal and not an issue at all?

Yeah, if you're not an ignorant asshole.

thepanzieman · July 05, 2015, 11:45:49 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T WILL RISE AGAIN on July 05, 2015, 11:40:54 PM

Quote from: thepanzieman on July 05, 2015, 11:33:38 PM
as I've said in bungle, transgender does not exist because gender does not exist.
But it does.

Gender roles are more of a social construct at this point, but gender is a physical construct that affects the chemical makeup of the brain.

I don't consider the physical makeup of the brain to be separate from the body, because the brain is in fact part of the body.

thus, "gender" is only a small part of the whole that is "sex"