Is morality objective?

 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I would argue that Gödel's theorems place a much stronger constraint on our ability to ascertain "objective" truth than our mere nature
Godel's theorems have to do with analytic propositions, no? The relation of ideas?

I was discussing synthetic propositions only.


 
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Yes, pain hurts. Why does that matter? How does that property of the sensation make it any less inherently "preferable" than the alternative?
Are you asking me why you wouldn't want to feel pain?

This is where it gets frustrating.
Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 09:20:28 PM by Verbatim


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My stupidity is self evident.
I would argue that Gödel's theorems place a much stronger constraint on ability to ascertain "objective" truth than our mere nature
Godel's theorems have to do with analytic propositions, no? The relation of ideas?

I was discussing synthetic propositions only.

Oh shi-


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Yes, pain hurts. Why does that matter? How does that property of the sensation make it any less inherently "preferable" than the alternative?
Are you asking me why you wouldn't want to feel pain?
I'm asking you why my preference matters.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Since Verb posted his 'definition', I'll post mine:



Where o is the outcome of action A, and u(o) is the terminal utility of o and p(o) the probability of o.


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Since Verb posted his 'definition', I'll post mine:



Where o is the outcome of action A, and u(o) is the terminal utility of o and p(o) the probability of o.
EDIT: I dumbed


 
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Yes, pain hurts. Why does that matter? How does that property of the sensation make it any less inherently "preferable" than the alternative?
Are you asking me why you wouldn't want to feel pain?
I'm asking you why my preference matters.
Your preference of what? Clarity is paramount in this kind of discussion.

Why does it matter that you would prefer not to feel pain? Because we're the only things on the planet that can cognizantly prevent it. Why shouldn't we take advantage of that?
Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 09:27:08 PM by Verbatim


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Yes, pain hurts. Why does that matter? How does that property of the sensation make it any less inherently "preferable" than the alternative?
Are you asking me why you wouldn't want to feel pain?
I'm asking you why my preference matters.
Your preference of what? Clarity is paramount in this kind of discussion.

Why does it matter that you would prefer not to feel pain? Because we're the only things on the planet that can cognizantly prevent it.
That sounds like circular logic to me. This is my thought process: We do not want pain and should actively try to prevent it when observed, because we feel pain? I don't follow. Yes, I acknowledge that I am capable of preventing it, and I absolutely do a majority of them time when I find it in front of me, but it's only "Good" based on the parameters I've settled to classify as such. "Good" and "Bad" are nonexistent concepts on their own.


 
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"Good" and "Bad" are nonexistent concepts on their own.
If you had read my previous post, you'd have noticed that I'd said the same thing...
Without sentient beings to ponder it, there is no morality.
...thus, you're arguing with a strawman.

The existence of sentient life produces morality, and it is objective--that is my argument.
Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 09:36:20 PM by Verbatim


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"Good" and "Bad" are nonexistent concepts on their own.
If you had read my previous post, you'd have noticed that I'd said the same thing...
Without sentient beings to ponder it, there is no morality.
...thus, you're arguing with a strawman.

The existence of sentient life produces morality, and it is objective--that is my argument.
I think I knew this is what you were saying the whole time, and I still disagree. If you are saying that the existence of pain necessitates a set of intrinsic moral boundaries, then I still fail to see why that necessity exists. Pain hurts, but why is that "Bad?" Can it not be "Good" in somebody else' eyes? Like a masochist? And if that's the case, doesn't such a break from the rule immediately invalidate its objectivity?


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
doesn't such a break from the rule immediately invalidate its objectivity?
No, because the rule is about human well-being. "Suffering" for a masochist is not a form a disutility; gratuitous suffering is the issue.


 
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Can it not be "Good" in somebody else' eyes?
No, not rationally.

Quote
Like a masochist?
Oh dear. I was wondering when someone was gonna pull the masochism card.

First of all, try punching a masochist in the face, without warning. See if he appreciates it.
Spoiler: He won't. That's not how masochism works.

The thing about BDSM is that it's all consensual--so, no harm done. This does not contradict my viewpoint, because unwanted pain is still unwanted pain. Just because a masochist is a masochist doesn't mean his sensory input is inverted throughout his entire life.


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First, somebody define what "Bad" means, because I clearly don't know.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
First, somebody define what "Bad" means, because I clearly don't know.
A position of disutility, characterised by gratuitous suffering.


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Since Verb posted his 'definition', I'll post mine:



Where o is the outcome of action A, and u(o) is the terminal utility of o and p(o) the probability of o.
This is just nonsensical.

OT: No morality is not objective. Morality is derived from human emotion and is subject to different standards in different cultures, thus making it inherently subjective.
Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 10:00:03 PM by Lord Starch


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
No morality is not objective. Morality is derived from human emotion and is subject to different standards in different cultures, thus making it inherently subjective.
"Near Death Experiences are derived wholly from human experience, and are subject to different characteristics in different cultures, thus making it impossible for us to talk about NDEs objectively."

You're confusing ontology and epistemology; we can talk objectively about the ontologically subjective.


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It's that time of night, and long enough after I've taken my melatonin, that I can't think very hard anymore.

I still don't really find myself convinced that morality is objective. With or without humans to judge.


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No morality is not objective. Morality is derived from human emotion and is subject to different standards in different cultures, thus making it inherently subjective.
"Near Death Experiences are derived wholly from human experience, and are subject to different characteristics in different cultures, thus making it impossible for us to talk about NDEs objectively."

You're confusing ontology and epistemology; we can talk objectively about the ontologically subjective.
I understand that this is a complex subject, but this thread reeks of escotericism. 


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
but this thread reeks of escotericism.
We're discussing philosophy. It's always going to be esoteric.


 
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Morality is derived from human emotion


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but this thread reeks of escotericism.
We're discussing philosophy. It's always going to be esoteric.
Eh.


 
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You're confusing ontology and epistemology; we can talk objectively about the ontologically subjective.
don't act like he knows what those words mean


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You're confusing ontology and epistemology; we can talk objectively about the ontologically subjective.
don't act like he knows what those words mean
Yeeeaaaah condescension!


 
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You're confusing ontology and epistemology; we can talk objectively about the ontologically subjective.
don't act like he knows what those words mean
Yeeeaaaah condescension!
i don't know--is it bad to want to streamline esoteric subjects to the uninitiated?

meta has a bad habit of speaking in jargon, so

that's not always conducive to fluid discussion
Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 10:13:00 PM by Verbatim


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Why do you people make life so complicated


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Why do you people make life so complicated
I think if there's one thing people should work out it's probably morality.


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You're confusing ontology and epistemology; we can talk objectively about the ontologically subjective.
don't act like he knows what those words mean
Yeeeaaaah condescension!
i don't know--is it bad to want to streamline esoteric subjects to the uninitiated?
If your goal is to promote more critical, philosophical thinking in people who aren't as versed in the subject as you, then no, it isn't bad. Honestly, I've found by excluding the people who are willing to partake in these sorts of discussions just because some of the vocabulary is unfamiliar, you just create a bigger division between the group of people that understand it with ease, and those that require a different approach.


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Why do you people make life so complicated
I think if there's one thing people should work out it's probably morality.
To be fair, the majority of people are capable of reaching identical conclusions as you without such an in-depth study of moral logistics.


 
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If your goal is to promote more critical, philosophical thinking in people who aren't as versed in the subject as you, then no, it isn't bad. Honestly, I've found by excluding the people who are willing to partake in these sorts of discussions just because some of the vocabulary is unfamiliar, you just create a bigger division between the group of people that understand it with ease, and those that require a different approach.
exactly

that's why i suggested that meta rephrase it in english

was i a little condescending? maybe
but i have animosity towards this lord starch fellow, so i don't really care
Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 10:25:09 PM by Verbatim


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Why do you people make life so complicated
I think if there's one thing people should work out it's probably morality.
It took 3 pages and probably more to explain? I think most of us grasp the concept without the essay.